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  #1681  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:43
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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When I hear my friend's story of how they got kicked out of their house by Israel so they could give it to an Israeli, I feel like they have a freaking good reason to not like Israel. But hey, that could be worse, they were just evicted...

So yeah, I think it won't never happen to see them liking Israel.
I know. If it were worse it would be like a genocide. Like the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turkish people. When I hear my friend's story of how they were made to march into the desert endlessly until they died I feel like they have a freaking good reason to not like Turkey.
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  #1682  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Was that ever Ottoman territory?

I lose interest once a country lies north of the Danube...
The Spanish Armadillo came close I believe.
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Old 22.08.2011, 16:45
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I know. If it were worse it would be like a genocide. Like the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turkish people. When I hear my friend's story of how they were made to march into the desert endlessly until they died I feel like they have a freaking good reason to not like Turkey.
yes please create a stock-market of suffering and trade one suffering with another one. Make an index!
  #1684  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:47
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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yes please create a stock-market of suffering and trade one suffering with another one. Make an index!
I would like to reply but I don't feel qualified since I'm not related to one of 300 million Arabs.
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  #1685  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:47
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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and what about Sealand?
No, the Israelis want the sea too; all the fish, gas and oil it has to offer and all the water in the rivers that flow into it.

Do I think that Israel has a right to exist?

I have already answered this before. I wish that Jews and Arabs could have lived in peace in the Palestine. Israel was created by anitsemitism, the Jews needed a country where they could feel safe after atrocities which culminated in WWII. They have a right to a sanctuary where they can feel safe. History has proven that they are not safe in any land (with the exception perhaps of the US) NATO had no right to give them Palestinian Land, but so much land got reapportioned after WWII, that's what happens in war. I think that they should have been given a homeland in Europe. the Europeans are to blame, they knew about the Holocaust and did nothing- what a betrayal!

Jews continue to be betrayed, little is said abut the fact that Jews were active in the US civil rights movement to then be betrayed by many African - American activists. Who can the Jews trust? It seems at times that they are everybody's whipping boy. Anti-semitism sickens me, while it is so prevalent Jews have to have a sanctuary, it's just a shame that it had to be at the expense of the Palestinians. In turn I do not believe that nay race or religion has a god-given right to any land, I believe in democracy. So I have no tolerance to Likud type Zionists.
The term Zionism is confusing to me. When I use it I assume that it means those who want to take as much land as possible, to eradicate Palestinians from what they see as Jewish ancestral homeland, even though I know that Zionism, like Islam has different forms.

So, no, I don't think that they had a sole right to Palestinian land. However now they have a right to live within the 67 borders,
  #1686  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:48
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I know. If it were worse it would be like a genocide. Like the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turkish people. When I hear my friend's story of how they were made to march into the desert endlessly until they died I feel like they have a freaking good reason to not like Turkey.
You try to convince who? A mother of kurdish kids? a wife of kurdish man? You won't have me defending Turkey here Economisto,

I have a pretty good idea of what it was like to Armenians, kurds, palestinians, so don't lose your time trying to corner me. I am no foul of what Turkey did, go and read my thread about it.
  #1687  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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NATO had no right to give them Palestinian Land,
It's a good job that NATO didn't do that, then, isn't it?

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I think that they should have been given a homeland in Europe
But the Jews' homeland is, and always was, the area which later became Israel.

Why should they have settled for second best after everyone else (apart from the Kurds and Gypsies) had got their own homeland in the place they'd always lived (roughly... we'll ignore the Ionian Greeks for the purposes of clarity)?
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  #1688  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:57
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I was onc at the playground with an Armenian friend. She caught her son playing with a Turk, she called him over and told him not to play with him- that he should hit him. I thought she was joking, she is well-educated and now runs one of the major charities for Armenian orphanages. She wasn't joking. I don't want to sound like a Coke ad, but if we could all raise our children to love not hate the world would be a different place.

For those who don't know the coke ad

  #1689  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:57
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You try to convince who? A mother of kurdish kids? a wife of kurdish man? You won't have me defending Turkey here Economisto,

I have a pretty good idea of what it was like to Armenians, kurds, palestinians, so don't lose your time trying to corner me. I am no foul of what Turkey did, go and read my thread about it.
Then let me answer you properly. Israeli's have evicted loads of Palestinians from their homes and it's terrible and it shouldn't have happened and if I were one of those Palestinians I would hate Israel too. But one thing I always notice about the anti-Israel gang is that they use specific situations and actions and events to prove their point without looking at context. They use international law when it suits them and rail against the UN when it feels that the UN is wrong. When Israel is bombed they say "those damn Hamas people - the poor Gazans live under their maniacal yoke..." and when Israel retaliates by bombing back and trying to target leaders in a city "those bastards, they've killed another 13 year old child who did nothing wrong, murderers..."

They way you find truth is look around for evidence and see where the evidence leads you. You don't start with the assumption that Israel is evil and try and find evidence to back up your assumption (there's loads if you're looking). The middle east is a very big picture and it flows into the wider world (I would say that if the US weren't so involved, most of what's going on now wouldn't be half as bad). So sure, if you're looking for a reason to hate Israel you can find a lot. Same with Palestinians. But it doesn't lead anywhere useful.
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Old 22.08.2011, 16:58
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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No, the Israelis want the sea too; all the fish, gas and oil it has to offer and all the water in the rivers that flow into it.

Do I think that Israel has a right to exist?

I have already answered this before. I wish that Jews and Arabs could have lived in peace in the Palestine. Israel was created by anitsemitism, the Jews needed a country where they could feel safe after atrocities which culminated in WWII. They have a right to a sanctuary where they can feel safe. History has proven that they are not safe in any land (with the exception perhaps of the US) NATO had no right to give them Palestinian Land, but so much land got reapportioned after WWII, that's what happens in war. I think that they should have been given a homeland in Europe. the Europeans are to blame, they knew about the Holocaust and did nothing- what a betrayal!

Jews continue to be betrayed, little is said abut the fact that Jews were active in the US civil rights movement to then be betrayed by many African - American activists. Who can the Jews trust? It seems at times that they are everybody's whipping boy. Anti-semitism sickens me, while it is so prevalent Jews have to have a sanctuary, it's just a shame that it had to be at the expense of the Palestinians. In turn I do not believe that nay race or religion has a god-given right to any land, I believe in democracy. So I have no tolerance to Likud type Zionists.
The term Zionism is confusing to me. When I use it I assume that it means those who want to take as much land as possible, to eradicate Palestinians from what they see as Jewish ancestral homeland, even though I know that Zionism, like Islam has different forms.

So, no, I don't think that they had a sole right to Palestinian land. However now they have a right to live within the 67 borders,
Did Israel have the right to establish itself at the costs and on the backs of the Palestinians? No. It was a colonial act, similar to the White colonisation of America or Australia in which it was hoped the native population would take a couple of beatings and then give up and go away, retreating to reservations and succumbing to alcohol and diseases. It was utterly wrong to think like that. No doubt about it.

But did Israel have the right to exist in principle? I would say yes. Every nation has the right to exist. If you read the history of Zionsim, you will see many of the early Zionists were not indifferent to the fate of the Palestinains but sought to either coexist with them peacefully or to offer them fair compensation for leaving voluntarily. But then things went sour, even before Israel gained independence.

The borders of 67 were utter BS even when they were drawn up. You cannot split a city like Jerusalem into sectors. Berlin was the living proof for that, and a situation like that cannot last. Anybody harkening back to that is part of the problem and not the solution. The borders of the future must be based on respect and sustainability and not on BS solutions of the past.
  #1691  
Old 22.08.2011, 16:59
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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It's a good job that NATO didn't do that, then, isn't it?



But the Jews' homeland is, and always was, the area which later became Israel.

Why should they have settled for second best after everyone else (apart from the Kurds and Gypsies) had got their own homeland in the place they'd always lived (roughly... we'll ignore the Ionian Greeks for the purposes of clarity)?
Because the logic goes that....

having lived somewhere 2000 years ago is too long ago for a claim and having lived somewhere for 63 years is too short for a claim but having lived somewhere for 1400 years is just right for a claim. Erm....I get it
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:04
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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When I hear my friend's story of how they got kicked out of their house by Israel so they could give it to an Israeli, I feel like they have a freaking good reason to not like Israel. But hey, that could be worse, they were just evicted...

So yeah, I think it won't never happen to see them liking Israel.
Is that your friend from the village with no name ? you mentioned it before.

Jewish houses all over the middle east were confiscated and given to Arabs - even though those Jews never did anything to harm Arab countries. You must be really incensed now, I pity the arab that will cross your path
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:05
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Because the logic goes that....

having lived somewhere 2000 years ago is too long ago for a claim and having lived somewhere for 63 years is too short for a claim but having lived somewhere for 1400 years is just right for a claim. Erm....I get it
Maybe it would have helped if there had been more Gypsy bankers in America in the 1930s and 40s. But I digress.
  #1694  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Well, I'm glad to see that we here on EF have got it all sorted out now, and that we can finally close this thread.


I mean, anything from here on in would just be needless repetition from entrenched attitudes with nothing new being added, wouldn't it?
.
  #1695  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Is that your friend from the village with no name ? you mentioned it before.

Jewish houses all over the middle east were confiscated and given to Arabs - even though those Jews never did anything to harm Arab countries. You must be really incensed now, I pity the arab that will cross your path
are you implying that israel confiscated the arab houses because the arab owner were harming israel?
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:08
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Then let me answer you properly. Israeli's have evicted loads of Palestinians from their homes and it's terrible and it shouldn't have happened and if I were one of those Palestinians I would hate Israel too. But one thing I always notice about the anti-Israel gang is that they use specific situations and actions and events to prove their point without looking at context. They use international law when it suits them and rail against the UN when it feels that the UN is wrong. When Israel is bombed they say "those damn Hamas people - the poor Gazans live under their maniacal yoke..." and when Israel retaliates by bombing back and trying to target leaders in a city "those bastards, they've killed another 13 year old child who did nothing wrong, murderers..."

They way you find truth is look around for evidence and see where the evidence leads you. You don't start with the assumption that Israel is evil and try and find evidence to back up your assumption (there's loads if you're looking). The middle east is a very big picture and it flows into the wider world (I would say that if the US weren't so involved, most of what's going on now wouldn't be half as bad). So sure, if you're looking for a reason to hate Israel you can find a lot. Same with Palestinians. But it doesn't lead anywhere useful.
There you go!

Palestinians ennemi is not Israel (not anymore anyway, since Israel won't go away, they have to deal and work with it) Palestinians ennemis are the terrorists who run Gaza. As long as they will be there, nothing good will come out of this situation.

Israel could be clever, could try to work with this to get the palestinians on its side. But mostly, Israel comes out as barbarian as the terrorists when it comes to react.

Israel should try to act better than them and be the one who do the ''adult'' thing instead of playing a power trip game. It needs to change its attitude and respect what has been said, what as been asked, what as been demanded.
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:08
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Well, I'm glad to see that we here on EF have got it all sorted out now, and that we can finally close this thread.


I mean, anything from here on in would just be needless repetition from entrenched attitudes with nothing new being added, wouldn't it?
.
Are you new on the EF by any chance?

Great introduction if you are.
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  #1698  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:09
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Is that your friend from the village with no name ? you mentioned it before.

Jewish houses all over the middle east were confiscated and given to Arabs - even though those Jews never did anything to harm Arab countries. You must be really incensed now, I pity the arab that will cross your path
Indeed. I've heard the central Arabian Jewish settlement of Khaybar is thriving particularly well. Although being outwardly Jewish is illegal in Saudi Arabia, so it's probably not. Oh well. Now that's not all Arabs. I wouldn't want to generalise. It's just, you know...Saudi and Syria and Lebanon and Yemen and Oman and Iraq ....wait....if my list gets long enough do I get to at least say "most Arabs"?
  #1699  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Palestinians ennemis are the terrorists who run Gaza
But Nil I've been to Gaza and Hamas are so so popular...
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:11
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Indeed. I've heard the central Arabian Jewish settlement of Khaybar is thriving particularly well. Although being outwardly Jewish is illegal in Saudi Arabia, so it's probably not. Oh well. Now that's not all Arabs. I wouldn't want to generalise. It's just, you know...Saudi and Syria and Lebanon and Yemen and Oman and Iraq ....wait....if my list gets long enough do I get to at least say "most Arabs"?
you're not even funny.....make an effort!
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