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Old 22.08.2011, 17:12
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Well, I'm glad to see that we here on EF have got it all sorted out now, and that we can finally close this thread.


I mean, anything from here on in would just be needless repetition from entrenched attitudes with nothing new being added, wouldn't it?
.
I think most of us are changing and learning here and there's real information and facts coming out. I've learned a lot. Join us?
  #1702  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:12
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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It's a good job that NATO didn't do that, then, isn't it?



But the Jews' homeland is, and always was, the area which later became Israel.

Why should they have settled for second best after everyone else (apart from the Kurds and Gypsies) had got their own homeland in the place they'd always lived (roughly... we'll ignore the Ionian Greeks for the purposes of clarity)?
If I were a Jew then I would have preferred a nice piece of Switzerland, but Germany would perhaps suffice. However I am not a neither Jew (Well you know, you can never be too sure and definitely not Arab, ( although I'm too sure about my kids as both the Greek and Arabs invaded Iran) so why am I on this thread?
  #1703  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:13
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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are you implying that israel confiscated the arab houses because the arab owner were harming israel?
you're the first person here to mention a causal link. Are you implying that the Arabs confiscated the Jewish houses because the Jews were harming Arab lands?
  #1704  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I think most of us are changing and learning here and there's real information and facts coming out. I've learned a lot. Join us?
Pray tell-what did you learn?
  #1705  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:16
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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are you implying that israel confiscated the arab houses because the arab owner were harming israel?

Yep. In 1948 After the Arabs fled, their homes were confiscated and given (mostly) to Jewish refugees (from antisemitic Arab & European countries).

Very few (if any) inhabited houses were confiscated.

Compared other conflicts in the middle east, this was very mild. Now go and shout at a Turk for what they did to the Greeks.
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Pray tell-what did you learn?
In fact Amolges' high quality posting and Nil's honest questions have helped me order my thoughts better. Forcing argumentation and "verbalisation" really helps in this way. Highest ideals of what a Forum should be and reflects the ancient Greeks who used to argue late into the night until they fell down asleep on the steps.
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:18
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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If I were a Jew then I would have preferred a nice piece of Switzerland, but Germany would perhaps suffice.
The Zionist establishment of Israel predates WW2 by several decades. The Balfour Declaration basically proposed to establish a Jewish state in Britain (or on land that was under British protection). In the following years Zionist pioneers already started moving there and establishing the first Kibutzim. As the movement accelerated, Britain began regretting its decison and sought to limit Jewish immigration into Palestine (a fact that accelerated the Israeli struggle for independence). Trying to establish Israel anywhere else (or not at all) would have been completely unworkable under the conditions.
  #1708  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The Zionist establishment of Israel predates WW2 by several decades. The Balfour Declaration basically proposed to establish a Jewish state in Britain (or on land that was under British protection). In the following years Zionist pioneers already started moving there and establishing the first Kibutzim. As the movement accelerated, Britain began regretting its decison and sought to limit Jewish immigration into Palestine. Trying to establish Israel anywhere else would have been completely unworkable under the conditions.

Also, people live everywhere currently, so it wouldn't have solved anything.
  #1709  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:20
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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you're the first person here to mention a causal link. Are you implying that the Arabs confiscated the Jewish houses because the Jews were harming Arab lands?
Let's take the example in North-Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia):
1) under french occupation/colony the majority of arab jews were with the french.
2) after decolonization all "collaborators" with french occupier had of course problems: including jews and arab nationals (like the harkis in Algeria).

3) french, italian, spanish, arab nationals (collaborators) lost property and had to leave North-Africa. Jews were not a special case.

4) There is still a community of jews in Morocco and Tunisia with full rights after decolonization.

5) During 67 war, there were many incidents/aggression on jews by arab population in North-Africa. Many jews decided to leave the country for France or Israel. They lost property here and it was confiscated by the authorities after they left.
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  #1710  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:23
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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In fact Amolges' high quality posting and Nil's honest questions have helped me order my thoughts better. Forcing argumentation and "verbalisation" really helps in this way. Highest ideals of what a Forum should be and reflects the ancient Greeks who used to argue late into the night until they fell down asleep on the steps.
you should also learn not to insult people if the ancient Greek is your reference (I point to the remark attached to your neg-rep).
  #1711  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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But Nil I've been to Gaza and Hamas are so so popular...
Of course they are! They are saying to the population what the population wants to hear! They are desperate, they want to live in peace in their home land. They want Israel to stop taking illegal land to build on it.

Now if you have someone who comes to you and swear to get it back, when it is the only person who do actually do something, what would you do? With the embargo, how palestinians in there can get educated of what is really going on?

If Israel stop to put them in a hole, stop to make them suffering of lack of goods, lack of comfort and education, but instead invest in development, educations, organisations, etc they could go a long way in the heart of Palestinians.

But keeping them in this situation will NEVER bring them to accept the situation, will NEVER bring them to stop fighting. And it will keep pushing the youngster to enroll in terrorist organisations.

This is the own stupidity of Israel. Two choices:

- Genocide Palestinians

Or

- Try to get them on your side.

But now it is just stupid games which won't bring any good and more death. It is to Israel to man's up and take concret and positive actions.
  #1712  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:26
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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...
The Balfour Declaration basically proposed to establish a Jewish state in Britain (or on land that was under British protection).
I have a sneaking suspicion that there just possibly might be a slight but important difference between your two quoted alternatives.


But you tell me...

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Old 22.08.2011, 17:26
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Also, people live everywhere currently, so it wouldn't have solved anything.
I think Hoppy was suggesting the Jews be given part of Germany post WW2, with the Germans being evicted from the region concerned, a bit like happened to the Germans evicted from Poland and Czechia at the time, as some sort of revenge or penalty for the war. Not that those particular evictions were in any way just or excusable.
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  #1714  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:47
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Yep. In 1948 After the Arabs fled, their homes were confiscated and given (mostly) to Jewish refugees (from antisemitic Arab & European countries).

Very few (if any) inhabited houses were confiscated.

Compared other conflicts in the middle east, this was very mild. Now go and shout at a Turk for what they did to the Greeks.
Do you know what the Greeks did to the Persians?
  #1715  
Old 22.08.2011, 17:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Do you know what the Greeks did to the Persians?
Rolled 'em up, took 'em outside, slung 'em over the rail, and got the dust and grit out of 'em?
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Old 22.08.2011, 17:53
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Rolled 'em up, took 'em outside, slung 'em over the rail, and got the dust and grit out of 'em?
Harhar very funny. She means in the Tottenham riots silly.
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  #1717  
Old 22.08.2011, 18:14
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

As far as I know the Balfour declaration and the White paper of 1939 did not go far enough for some Zionists. The Zionist movement changed and its aims outlined by the Biltmore Conference

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The Biltmore Conference, also known by its resolution as the Biltmore Program, was a fundamental departure from traditional Zionist policy[1] with its demand "that Palestine be established as a Jewish Commonwealth."[2] The meeting was held in New York City at the prestigious Biltmore Hotel from May 6 to May 11, 1942 with 600 delegates and Zionist leaders from 18 countries attending.
Prior to Biltmore, official Zionism steadfastly refused to formulate the ultimate aim of the movement preferring instead to concentrate on the practical task of building the Jewish National Home. The Biltmore Program became the official Zionist stand on the ultimate aim of the movement.[1] The major shift at Biltmore was prompted by intense common opposition to the British White Paper of 1939, which interpreted the terms of the Mandate in a way that would freeze "the Jewish community to a permanent minority status," and the then-current war negative situation. It was also prompted by the realization that America would play a larger part in fulfillment of Zionist designs after the war.[3]
But the main problem started with WWII

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The 1936 Nuremberg Laws stripped the 500,000 German Jews of their citizenship, making them stateless refugees. Jewish migration was impeded by Nazi restrictions on the transfer of finances abroad (departing Jews had to abandon their property), but the Jewish Agency was able to negotiate an agreement allowing Jews resident in Germany to buy German goods for export to Palestine thus circumventing the restrictions.
The large numbers of Jews entering Palestine led to the 19361939 Arab revolt in Palestine. Britain responded to the Arab revolt by appointing a Royal Commission, known as the Peel Commission which traveled out to Palestine and undertook a thorough study of the issues. The Peel Commission recommended in 1937 that Palestine be partitioned into two states, one Arab the other Jewish.
Wikipedia

I am influenced by those around me. My father was there at that time in Palestine so he had strong opinions, it would be interesting to ask him about it but he is deceased. Now I am influenced by my husband who seems to know every date, act and atrocity of by heart.
  #1718  
Old 22.08.2011, 18:19
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Harhar very funny. She means in the Tottenham riots silly.
The Greeks were so jealous of the beauty of Persian culture that they razed Persepolis. The ruins of which I visited this summer
  #1719  
Old 22.08.2011, 18:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The Greeks were so jealous of the beauty of Persian culture that they razed Persepolis.
Ah, so it was a bit like what happened to the Acropolis then, but seen from the back?
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Old 22.08.2011, 18:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Ah, so it was a bit like what happened to the Acropolis then, but seen from the back?
That sounds like a dirty joke. But somehow I can't work it out
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