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  #1721  
Old 22.08.2011, 19:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Do you know what the Greeks did to the Persians?
... in revenge for what the Persians did to the Greeks - several thousand years ago.

Unlike the conflict to which Pashosh refers, which is directly relevant to the Israel/Palestine business, being part of the same process of nation states taking shape as the Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Indeed, direct parallels can be drawn between the situation in Northern Cyprus and that of the 'Occupied Territories'. Both are spoils of wars started by the other side, neither has been resolved to the satisfaction of the displaced residents, the only difference is that hardly anyone gives a bollocks about Northern Cyprus, while quite a lot of people, somewhat inexplicably, give a bollocks about Israel/Palestine.

Hang on - did I say inexplicably?

Only joking. There's nothing inexplicable about the world's obsession with the planet's only Jewish state...
  #1722  
Old 22.08.2011, 19:41
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Indeed, direct parallels can be drawn between the situation in Northern Cyprus and that of the 'Occupied Territories'. Both are spoils of wars started by the other side, neither has been resolved to the satisfaction of the displaced residents, the only difference is that hardly anyone gives a bollocks about Northern Cyprus, while quite a lot of people, somewhat inexplicably, give a bollocks about Israel/Palestine.

Hang on - did I say inexplicably?

Only joking. There's nothing inexplicable about the world's obsession with the planet's only Jewish state...
It'd be a bit like the Serb dictator accusing all dissidents of being Turkish Cypriot agents and imposing curfews on the basis of that, while Bulgarian suicide bombers ... doesn't work, does it?
  #1723  
Old 22.08.2011, 19:52
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Well, I'm glad to see that we here on EF have got it all sorted out now, and that we can finally close this thread.


I mean, anything from here on in would just be needless repetition from entrenched attitudes with nothing new being added, wouldn't it?
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Old 22.08.2011, 19:56
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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#Uncle_Max @19:50 Tweets: "I like baklava & tea, the Muezzin's call & geometric design; qualified to contribute to thread but dunno what it's about, nor the point"
You're on Tweet?
  #1725  
Old 22.08.2011, 23:27
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Ah, so it was a bit like what happened to the Acropolis then, but seen from the back?
Yes except Persepolis was much older, the Greeks had nothing like it so they had to copy it.

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  #1726  
Old 22.08.2011, 23:31
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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... in revenge for what the Persians did to the Greeks - several thousand years ago.

Unlike the conflict to which Pashosh refers, which is directly relevant to the Israel/Palestine business, being part of the same process of nation states taking shape as the Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Indeed, direct parallels can be drawn between the situation in Northern Cyprus and that of the 'Occupied Territories'. Both are spoils of wars started by the other side, neither has been resolved to the satisfaction of the displaced residents, the only difference is that hardly anyone gives a bollocks about Northern Cyprus, while quite a lot of people, somewhat inexplicably, give a bollocks about Israel/Palestine.

Hang on - did I say inexplicably?

Only joking. There's nothing inexplicable about the world's obsession with the planet's only Jewish state...
Yes, why did you let the Turks bully the Greek Cypriots? You should have claimed to have found oil in the region and need international help.
  #1727  
Old 22.08.2011, 23:45
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Do you know what the Greeks did to the Persians?
So that is why the Persians are trying to build nuclear weapons?
Watch out Greece there is a modified Scud with your name on it
  #1728  
Old 22.08.2011, 23:55
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So that is why the Persians are trying to build nuclear weapons?
Watch out Greece there is a modified Scud with your name on it
The regime is just keeping up with the Jones' I mean the Levy's. The Greek economy is down the drain so they can't afford a bomb right now, the Iranian economy seems doing pretty well.
  #1729  
Old 23.08.2011, 00:16
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So that is why the Persians are trying to build nuclear weapons?
Watch out Greece there is a modified Scud with your name on it
in the shape of a horse?
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Old 23.08.2011, 12:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Yep. In 1948 After the Arabs fled, their homes were confiscated and given (mostly) to Jewish refugees (from antisemitic Arab & European countries).

Very few (if any) inhabited houses were confiscated.

Compared other conflicts in the middle east, this was very mild. Now go and shout at a Turk for what they did to the Greeks.
I sincerely invite you to read some of the books and articles from israeli historians like Avi Shlaim , Benny Morris or Ilan Pappé.
You will see how "ethnic cleansing" of palestine has been planned and executed (with clear references to israeli official documents). Murdering, rape, massacres in villages perpetrated by Haganah and Irgun.
Karl Deutsch defined a nation as "a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbours."

I understand that you're also a victime of the "official national history version". There are some fundamental lies in Israel's fundation:

1) 1948 UN plan was for a 2 state solution (jewish + arab). It was not a free unoccupied land waiting to be built. Documents provided by quoted historians show that Ben Gurion wanted from beginning to take over all the land.

2) Palestinians were forced to leave their land, farms, houses by oprganized terrorist attacks and massacres. it's not taking "abandoned land" as you state it and it was not "mild" as you state it. It was clearly ethnical cleansing.

3) Establishment of an apartheid system for Arab-Israeli. This segregation system went beyond arabs and involved jews and this can be seen in the recent social movements in Israel.

Some other points that I read regularly here:

- why do other arab countries care about palestinians and are opposed to Israel although Israel does not threat them: despite the differences among arab countries/population there are fundamental cultural, historical basis they share. The spreading of "arab revolution" from country to country is the proof that they are "connected". Therefore arabs watching on TV how palestinians are treated do feel a strong sympathy for them. If you don't understand it then you lack a basic knowledge of arab society.

- Do people know really what 1967 border is?: Not everyone for sure, as not every european understands all the exact EU treaties and agreements. But people in arab countries do have access to all sort of media and information through Internet (just see its impact on arab revolution). People are well informed and debate about it at home, office, street, bus, coffee etc.... It's something I witnessed.

- Why do all arabs hate Israel and want to push jews in the sea? Today I hardly see strong discussions on Israel in arab revolution. People are focused on creating a new country, society with freedom. The incidents in Egypt is a consequence of the border events with israel (killing of 5 security guards by IDF). Today Israel as a country to "destroy" is hardly on the media and discussed among the people. People do have a resentiment about how unfair the treatment towards palestinians is and therefore wants to "punish" israel. But no "destruction" or "pushing jews to sea". People are getting pragmatic and see that Israel is here to stay. If you want to compare it's like everyone dreams to be a billionnaire but facts and statistics show you that chances are very very low...so they live with it.


As much as I like debating here, I see sometime very agressive attitudes and unrespectful remarks from highly loyal people of this forum. I see also that the "enforcing" of this thread is very selective. Some mods don't write anything when some posters go off topic while they jump immediately in the thread if other posters go off-topic. I hope the heated debate will go on but with respect. If not, then it will turn into just an arab-islam-turkish bashing thread which I hope does not reflect EF membership.
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  #1731  
Old 23.08.2011, 13:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I sincerely invite you to read some of the books and articles from israeli historians like Avi Shlaim , Benny Morris or Ilan Pappé.
You will see how "ethnic cleansing" of palestine has been planned and executed (with clear references to israeli official documents). Murdering, rape, massacres in villages perpetrated by Haganah and Irgun.
Karl Deutsch defined a nation as "a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbours."

I understand that you're also a victime of the "official national history version". There are some fundamental lies in Israel's fundation:

1) 1948 UN plan was for a 2 state solution (jewish + arab). It was not a free unoccupied land waiting to be built. Documents provided by quoted historians show that Ben Gurion wanted from beginning to take over all the land.

2) Palestinians were forced to leave their land, farms, houses by oprganized terrorist attacks and massacres. it's not taking "abandoned land" as you state it and it was not "mild" as you state it. It was clearly ethnical cleansing.

3) Establishment of an apartheid system for Arab-Israeli. This segregation system went beyond arabs and involved jews and this can be seen in the recent social movements in Israel.

Some other points that I read regularly here:

- why do other arab countries care about palestinians and are opposed to Israel although Israel does not threat them: despite the differences among arab countries/population there are fundamental cultural, historical basis they share. The spreading of "arab revolution" from country to country is the proof that they are "connected". Therefore arabs watching on TV how palestinians are treated do feel a strong sympathy for them. If you don't understand it then you lack a basic knowledge of arab society.

- Do people know really what 1967 border is?: Not everyone for sure, as not every european understands all the exact EU treaties and agreements. But people in arab countries do have access to all sort of media and information through Internet (just see its impact on arab revolution). People are well informed and debate about it at home, office, street, bus, coffee etc.... It's something I witnessed.

- Why do all arabs hate Israel and want to push jews in the sea? Today I hardly see strong discussions on Israel in arab revolution. People are focused on creating a new country, society with freedom. The incidents in Egypt is a consequence of the border events with israel (killing of 5 security guards by IDF). Today Israel as a country to "destroy" is hardly on the media and discussed among the people. People do have a resentiment about how unfair the treatment towards palestinians is and therefore wants to "punish" israel. But no "destruction" or "pushing jews to sea". People are getting pragmatic and see that Israel is here to stay. If you want to compare it's like everyone dreams to be a billionnaire but facts and statistics show you that chances are very very low...so they live with it.


As much as I like debating here, I see sometime very agressive attitudes and unrespectful remarks from highly loyal people of this forum. I see also that the "enforcing" of this thread is very selective. Some mods don't write anything when some posters go off topic while they jump immediately in the thread if other posters go off-topic. I hope the heated debate will go on but with respect. If not, then it will turn into just an arab-islam-turkish bashing thread which I hope does not reflect EF membership.
We have already discussed the 1948 war many times on this forum- no need to repeat it.

I know how "palestianian suffering" is shown on Arab & western media. much greater suffering of other Arabs (or Palestinians under Arab rule) is not shown. hence the groundswell of hate towards Israel.

Look at your description of the Eilat incidents: A terrorist attack originating from Egypt kills Israeli civilians, police & army. during the fight 5 Egyptian soldiers die. Whether they were killed by Israel & how is yet unknown. But you focus on the 5 dead Egyptian soldiers rather than the Israeli civilians. why ?

Most of the Arab population understood that Israel is here to stay - because their continual genocidal attempts failed. this doesn't make the peaceful, rather more realistic. Instead of seeking to engage Israel they seek to attack & harass by other means (U.N votes, boycotts etc).

When an Arab dares to state the obvious and not vilify Israel, or not tow the line of animosity he suffers greatly. Egypt's Ali Salim & the late Naguib Mahfouz are good examples.

As for the latest demos in Israel - they have nothing to do with "segregation", rather then the high costs of living in Israel and that the Israeli economy is too centralized, allowing few individuals/families to control large chunks of Israeli economy. this affects practically all Israelis.
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  #1732  
Old 23.08.2011, 13:37
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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(...)
Look at your description of the Eilat incidents: A terrorist attack originating from Egypt kills Israeli civilians, police & army. during the fight 5 Egyptian soldiers die. Whether they were killed by Israel & how is yet unknown. But you focus on the 5 dead Egyptian soldiers rather than the Israeli civilians. why ?
the hate against israel is fueled by such events (killing of egyptian border security guards) and obviously not by the regrettable death of an israeli citizen. Therefore no purpose to bring the israeli death toll. The purpose was not to diminish the value of an israeli life. By the way israeli defense minister expressed the regrets of israel regarding the incident --> recognized it was IDF.

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Most of the Arab population understood that Israel is here to stay - because their continual genocidal attempts failed. this doesn't make the peaceful, rather more realistic. Instead of seeking to engage Israel they seek to attack & harass by other means (U.N votes, boycotts etc).
Please make a wise selection of words. This is more than exageration to use the word "genocidal" attempts when we know how jewish sepharads survived during WWII. Using your own words we can state it was "milder" than the jews in Europe.

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As for the latest demos in Israel - they have nothing to do with "segregation", rather then the high costs of living in Israel and that the Israeli economy is too centralized, allowing few individuals/families to control large chunks of Israeli economy. this affects practically all Israelis.
access to housing is very "selective" for arabs. Some rabbis asked jews not to rent to arabs. Please read the 4 August letter of Tent.1948 from protesters. Discrimination towards arabs and mizrahi jews when it comes to access to housing.
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  #1733  
Old 23.08.2011, 13:59
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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the hate against israel is fueled by such events (killing of egyptian border security guards) and obviously not by the regrettable death of an israeli citizen. Therefore no purpose to bring the israeli death toll. The purpose was not to diminish the value of an israeli life. By the way israeli defense minister expressed the regrets of israel regarding the incident --> recognized it was IDF.
No it wasn't recognized by the IDF or Barak - because it's not yet clear who killed them, how and why. Egyptian are jumping the Shark on this one.

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Please make a wise selection of words. This is more than exageration to use the word "genocidal" attempts when we know how jewish sepharads survived during WWII. Using your own words we can state it was "milder" than the jews in Europe.
Had the arabs won any of the wars, the Jews of Israel would face a genocide. In such a sad scenario you would say the Jews were "collaborators" or "imperalists" and as such deserve it.

How about Arab countries north Africa resubstitute Jewish property ? this will make their public position towards the Palestinians slightly more believable. it would also make economical sense - their economy is catastrophic since they kicked out non-Arabs ("Zimbabwe sur Med", anyone ?)
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  #1734  
Old 23.08.2011, 14:20
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So that is why the Persians are trying to build nuclear weapons?
Watch out Greece there is a modified Scud with your name on it
in the shape of a horse?

Don't be silly

israel-palestine-part-2-holygrail066.jpg

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Old 23.08.2011, 14:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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No it wasn't recognized by the IDF or Barak - because it's not yet clear who killed them, how and why. Egyptian are jumping the Shark on this one.
Please read this Haaretz article. Barak admits IDF soldiers shot at egyptian policemen.

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Had the arabs won any of the wars, the Jews of Israel would face a genocide. In such a sad scenario you would say the Jews were "collaborators" or "imperalists" and as such deserve it.
I know you are a man of "facts", but aren't you doing here history-fiction?
You are projecting assumptions on how arabs would have reacted.....does it in fact not say more about your perception of arabs?
The persecution of jews was mainly due to French pro-german policy (Vichy government). Even Yadvashem documents cite mainly france and germany for anti-jew laws and persecution in Tunisia.

Please have a closer look at moroccan and tunisian jewish community. Thousands of israeli and jews come to Djerba for the Ghriba synagog pilgrimage every year in spring.

Here is an article (in french) about the Shoah debate that took place in Tunisia with Serge Klarsfeld historian. It's a UNESCO project called Aladin to inform arab population about the Shoah.
I wish you had at least the same understanding for arab people.

Here is a testimony on Holocaust in Tunisia. Germans are the perpetrators and not arabs of tunisia.

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How about Arab countries north Africa resubstitute Jewish property ? this will make their public position towards the Palestinians slightly more believable. it would also make economical sense - their economy is catastrophic since they kicked out non-Arabs ("Zimbabwe sur Med", anyone ?)
you wrote "economy is catastrophy because they kicked out non-arabs": this is a racist remark as you imply that they are too stupid to manage their own country. There are structural reasons for the economical situation but some of north-african countries do quite well compared to other countries.

Do you realize the gravity of what you're writing? Same arguments were written about black people in Apartheid south-africa: they are too stupid too manage a country...let them ruled by white minority.

The lost property issue in North-Africa is a large problem where all former colonizers lost property (french, italians, spanish, maltese, jewish....). There are negociations to give back property but it's a very long process. I know many french people who lost houses in Tunisia. Why should israeli/jews be treated differently when on the other side they don't want also to give land back to palestinians?
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  #1736  
Old 23.08.2011, 14:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Do people know really what 1967 border is?: Not everyone for sure, as not every european understands all the exact EU treaties and agreements. But people in arab countries do have access to all sort of media and information through Internet (just see its impact on arab revolution). People are well informed and debate about it at home, office, street, bus, coffee etc.... It's something I witnessed.
This point deserves to be drilled back on.

Just because a lot of people talk about something does not mean they know a lot about it. Look for example in many European countries where a lot of people may have very fix opinions on Muslims and discuss them frequently, fueled maybe by the tabloid press. Does that mean that these people actually know a lot about Muslims? Not really. Does the average Arab know more about Israel than the average European knows about Muslims? I doubt it. Israel is still very much a caricature in the Arab world. People know all the bad and nasty aspects but very little about the positive aspects.

The 1967 borders of Israel were a compromise. At the time nobody liked them and nobody wanted them. Both sides wanted to move those borders. They only differred in the question of which way to move them. I am not aware of any process of deep wisdom that created those borders (if I am wong please correct me). So to wish to return to those borders has nothing to do with the desire to return to a wonderful beautiful peaceful and harmonic situation that once was. It is the desire to replace one nasty situation by another.

I have already mentioned the issue of Jerusalem. basically the borders carved up the city. A bit like Berlin. A situation like that is not instrumental to peace. When you carve cities up they have this tendency of seeking to join back together. That means one side or the other is going to have to back down over more than the 1967 claim to that city. The same is true in thousands of other places along teh border but just less visible. The 1967 borders are just as unjust as the present borders. If you want a fair and peaceful border you are going to have to be able to compromise. Give something here to take something there. The final result must be two countries that are able to function peacefully. Not too countries that fulfill some megaloman's dream for scoring points over an enemy.
  #1737  
Old 23.08.2011, 14:32
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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This point deserves to be drilled back on.

(...)Israel is still very much a caricature in the Arab world. People know all the bad and nasty aspects but very little about the positive aspects.
(...)
.
a quick and short answer:
for a lot of arabs Israel's strength (positive aspects):
- strong democracy
- strong scientific, economical infrastructure
- strong army
- small by its population but strong by its will (as positive example)
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Old 23.08.2011, 14:53
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Please read this Haaretz article. Barak admits IDF soldiers shot at egyptian policemen.
I did. At no occasion did Barak say that Israel killed the policeman - The newspaper claims this. What Barak did say:


"Israel regrets the deaths of the Egyptian policemen during the attack on the Israel-Egypt border," Barak said on Saturday.
Barak ordered the IDF to investigate the incident after which a joint investigation will be conducted with the Egyptian military to determine the circumstances of the incident."


Let's wait for the investigation and see.




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I know you are a man of "facts", but aren't you doing here history-fiction?
You are projecting assumptions on how arabs would have reacted.....does it in fact not say more about your perception of arabs?
I'm talking about the Arab treatment of Israelis had Israel been occupied by Arabs. No jews were allowed to live in the areas controlled by the arabs after 1948 war. Genocidal speeches were made by arab leaders.


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you wrote "economy is catastrophy because they kicked out non-arabs": this is a racist remark as you imply that they are too stupid to manage their own country. There are structural reasons for the economical situation but some of north-african countries do quite well compared to other countries.

No - I said " their economy is catastrophic since they kicked out non-Arabs" - This is a fact. Chauvinist, racist countries rarely do well.

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The lost property issue in North-Africa is a large problem where all former colonizers lost property (french, italians, spanish, maltese, jewish....). There are negociations to give back property but it's a very long process. I know many french people who lost houses in Tunisia. Why should israeli/jews be treated differently when on the other side they don't want also to give land back to palestinians?
The Jews were in north Africa before the Arabs. Who are the colonisers ?
In any case - North African countries are no position to lecture anyone about "stolen land".
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Old 23.08.2011, 15:04
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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(...)
The Jews were in north Africa before the Arabs. Who are the colonisers ?
In any case - North African countries are no position to lecture anyone about "stolen land".
Presence of Jews in tunisia is confirmed from II century. They came when it was already "occupied" by phenicians, romans, carthagenese and berbers. The community also increased through proselytizing and immigration after Titus took Jerusalem in 70 (source: Paul Sebag, Histoire des Juifs de Tunisie. Des origines ŕ nos jours, éd. L'Harmattan, 1991, p. 21)

Most of population in North-Africa are not racial arabs but local population converted to islam and arab culture.
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Old 23.08.2011, 15:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Presence of Jews in tunisia is confirmed from II century. They came when it was already "occupied" by phenicians, romans, carthagenese and berbers. The community also increased through proselytizing and immigration after Titus took Jerusalem in 70 (source: Paul Sebag, Histoire des Juifs de Tunisie. Des origines ŕ nos jours, éd. L'Harmattan, 1991, p. 21)

Most of population in North-Africa are not racial arabs but local population converted to islam and arab culture.
This still leaves the jews as one of the oldest inhabitants of north africa, who were kicked out by "arabic speaking" racists.
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