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  #61  
Old 10.12.2009, 13:15
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Accelerando's quite good on this. Free ebook here:

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/accelerando/

Basically everything becomes a computer and the struggle is to find more power and how to stay interested.

sounds like work to me
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  #62  
Old 10.12.2009, 13:16
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

Hmm some flak incoming!
Hi Corsebou TheReturn, I think you might have misread what I wrote, please take it in a general way and note my use of quotation marks, actually you confirm what I am saying, feeding the "worlds poor" does more harm than good in the long run, the ITURD kind of consumerism is just fluff and very shallow, people like to have glass beads and other gewgaw's, the consumerism i fear is the one where just too many people want a lilmited supply of food, water, energy.
You need breathable air, clean water and a few pounds of food, a roof over your head, a comfy place to crash, but even that is far beyond the means of billions of inhabitants on this rock. Without a economy able to purchase the immense power of oil we may find that it is even beyond our reach, time will tell.
I do not feel guilt eating breathing and having a beer or two, consuming my fair share, the one that I can buy. But I feel the itch to find my place in the scheme of things.
Maybe we will find a way out, new technologies and such but it is and always will be a pyramid game and the results are diminishing returns, one can wish our problems away, pray to a higher instance for them to go or put your trust in half baked "new technologies".
There is a analog that I like to use.
To the end of bigbang II Brilliant minds in a Germany with it's back to the wall came up with the concept of wunderwaffen, new technologies that will win the war for Germany.
All hope was for "new technologies"
Now in retrospect we can rightfully say: "thank goodness, the Nazi's where wiped off the face of the earth"
Germany collapsed and the war was lost despite them. Now in a post war world with a different set of cards we can profit from those new technologies.
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  #63  
Old 10.12.2009, 13:20
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Beam me up, Derv...
Strange man, why do you want to be beamed up Derv Ouchboy?

Last edited by slammer; 10.12.2009 at 13:21. Reason: forgot name
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  #64  
Old 10.12.2009, 13:26
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Beam me up, Derv...
Ofcourse Bud... then You and I can embark on our inter-galactic Romps with some Alien Beauties.

Just hope that the transporter machine holds your configuration right, otherwise that thing down there would kinda look really odd in place of your nose
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  #65  
Old 10.12.2009, 13:32
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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If you allotted 1250 square feet to each person, all the people in the world would fit into the state of Texas. Try the math yourself: 7,438,152,268,800 square feet in Texas, divided by the world population of 5,860,000,000, equals 1269 square feet per person.
I repeated your calculation with Texas area data from Wikipedia and the agreement was quite close. How unusual that a post on EF has accurate numbers to back up a point!

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The population density of this giant city would be about 21,000 -- somewhat more than San Francisco and less than the Bronx.

I'd hate to use its public transport system though.

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Another fact: World population growth is rapidly declining.
I don't think a 0.5% deceleration in 5 years is "rapid". But when do the projections from these figures show a net decline in the total world population?

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Have you ever thought we need Oil as energy because it was available and discovered and the modern inventions and life developed around it.
I'll go along with that one. No energy = no economic expansion. The economists and MathNuts would do well to take that point on board.

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Say we reach Peak Oil and there is no oil left?
Peak Oil doesn't equate to No Oil. no Oil follows after Peak Oil. Peak Oil is about a peak in oil production. At the level of world annual production rate, it's increasingly likely we have passed that point.

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Will the humanity cease to exist or suffer dire consequences?
Not the former, likely the latter.

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While I don't doubt that technology will keep up, what are you going to end up with as we slowly creep over every useable bit of land. Even if technology does keep up, if population keeps growing we will eventually hit a wall, even if it's not in the forseeable future.
The Cornucopians don't like the idea of finite limits.
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  #66  
Old 10.12.2009, 13:33
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Hmm some flak incoming!
Hi Corsebou TheReturn, I think you might have misread what I wrote, please take it in a general way and note my use of quotation marks, actually you confirm what I am saying, feeding the "worlds poor" does more harm than good in the long run, the ITURD kind of consumerism is just fluff and very shallow, people like to have glass beads and other gewgaw's, the consumerism i fear is the one where just too many people want a lilmited supply of food, water, energy.
You need breathable air, clean water and a few pounds of food, a roof over your head, a comfy place to crash, but even that is far beyond the means of billions of inhabitants on this rock. Without a economy able to purchase the immense power of oil we may find that it is even beyond our reach, time will tell.
I do not feel guilt eating breathing and having a beer or two, consuming my fair share, the one that I can buy. But I feel the itch to find my place in the scheme of things.
Maybe we will find a way out, new technologies and such but it is and always will be a pyramid game and the results are diminishing returns, one can wish our problems away, pray to a higher instance for them to go or put your trust in half baked "new technologies".
There is a analog that I like to use.
To the end of bigbang II Brilliant minds in a Germany with it's back to the wall came up with the concept of wunderwaffen, new technologies that will win the war for Germany.
All hope was for "new technologies"
Now in retrospect we can rightfully say: "thank goodness, the Nazi's where wiped off the face of the earth"
Germany collapsed and the war was lost despite them. Now in a post war world with a different set of cards we can profit from those new technologies.
I did not read this post yet, simply to clarify: It not's you who is responsible for this "vision" of the western country, which we need to feel guilty.
That's what's spread by charities, etc... to raise more money for their pocket. And by politicians to have materials for getting "in place".

You, in this, probably just repeated or spread the general vision that we can see everywhere around!
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  #67  
Old 10.12.2009, 13:45
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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I repeated your calculation with Texas area data from Wikipedia and the agreement was quite close. How unusual that a post on EF has accurate numbers to back up a point!
Ohh.. You are embarassing me now

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I'd hate to use its public transport system though.


US public transport is not its best, read its to do with the Tire manufacturer lobby.

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I don't think a 0.5% deceleration in 5 years is "rapid". But when do the projections from these figures show a net decline in the total world population?
Agreed, 0.5% is not rapid, but it can be if its down from +5% down to -0.5%. Just a relative use of term, not arguing if it is or not.

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I'll go along with that one. No energy = no economic expansion. The economists and MathNuts would do well to take that point on board.
Nopes... it will not go down well with their followers. Can you imagine the hysteria it will cause if people are told that they will not be able to drive down to Wal-mart or use their iPhones, in their short sightedness, not knowing they wont be needing them then?

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Peak Oil doesn't equate to No Oil. no Oil follows after Peak Oil. Peak Oil is about a peak in oil production. At the level of world annual production rate, it's increasingly likely we have passed that point.
Sorry my mistake, just described that point in haste. Yes after Peak Oil, there will be gradual decline in its production and the human life and economy will start adapting accordingly. First Oil only for transport, wod and coal for domestic heating purposes... then towards the end, only for the Military establishments, civilians can ride horses and grow grains in their backyards, perhaps?

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Not the former, likely the latter.
Knowing we have been survivng for the most part of our history without Oil, it might not be as bad. There certainly are engineering and technological feats of the Olden world which were managed without Oil or such fuels.
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  #68  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:10
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Cant we build a Starship Enterprise and live in Space please?
We do not have to, we can still optimise our houses on earth and we are on the right track: http://www.gizmag.com/go/3122/gallery/


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  #69  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:11
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Maybe we will find a way out, new technologies and such but it is and always will be a pyramid game and the results are diminishing returns, one can wish our problems away, pray to a higher instance for them to go or put your trust in half baked "new technologies".
There is a analog that I like to use.
To the end of bigbang II Brilliant minds in a Germany with it's back to the wall came up with the concept of wunderwaffen, new technologies that will win the war for Germany.
All hope was for "new technologies"
Now in retrospect we can rightfully say: "thank goodness, the Nazi's where wiped off the face of the earth"
Germany collapsed and the war was lost despite them. Now in a post war world with a different set of cards we can profit from those new technologies.
Your analogy is pretty anal:
1. WW2 was decided through strategy, not technology.
2. One of those developments was the jet engine. Fortunately it came too late, so Hitler could produce too few planes and did not have sufficient fuel for them. Otherwise the leap in technology could very well have prolonged the war for years.

3. Since you mentioned the Nazis by yourself, this discussion is finished. Old EF rule.
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  #70  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:18
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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We do not have to, we can still optimise our houses on earth and we are on the right track: http://www.gizmag.com/go/3122/gallery/

Do the doors open with the same "sound effect" as on Star Trek.. I quite like that

And the mass of the Starship expanding to infinite level, while travelling faster than speed of light and then back to the original configuration again.

And not to mention the Klingon women
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  #71  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:32
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Sorry my mistake, just described that point in haste. Yes after Peak Oil, there will be gradual decline in its production and the human life and economy will start adapting accordingly. First Oil only for transport, wod and coal for domestic heating purposes... then towards the end, only for the Military establishments, civilians can ride horses and grow grains in their backyards, perhaps?
Oil will be less and less used as a transport fuel and more generally as an energy source. We won't have to use horses though.
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  #72  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:35
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

Hi Treverus, sorry but I think you are nit-picking here, it was a analogy nothing more or less.
And sorry to burst your bubble here but the war was won by the side that had the ability for it's industry to produce arms in whatever shape faster that they were being destroyed and it all washed up on a sea of oil, stratagie played a lesser role.
As to the EF rule? First time I have heard about it, sorry won't happen again!
Slammer.
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  #73  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:39
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Oil will be less and less used as a transport fuel and more generally as an energy source. We won't have to use horses though.
Ok.. "energy source" for what?

Oil will be used less as transprt fuel and we wont be using horses either, then what?
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  #74  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:40
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Dont despair.

MYTH: The world is overcrowded and population growth is adding overwhelming numbers of humans to a small planet.
.
In fact, people ...... 1.5% in 1990-95.
Can you please use quotes Dervaish?
You passed this off as your own thoughts but the English was too perfect

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Overpopulation
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  #75  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:43
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Ok.. "energy source" for what?

Oil will be used less as transprt fuel and we wont be using horses either, then what?
There are any number of energy sources you can use to produce electricity to power electric vehicles.
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  #76  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:44
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Can you please use quotes Dervaish?
You passed this off as your own thoughts but the English was too perfect

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Overpopulation
Sorry, it was certainly not my intention, I thought the BOLD title would be enough hint that its copied from somewhere else. BUT its not Wikipedia.

I just googled on "arguments against overpopulation" and Viola
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  #77  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:48
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Oil will be less and less used as a transport fuel and more generally as an energy source. We won't have to use horses though.
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There are any number of energy sources you can use to produce electricity to power electric vehicles.
Ok and usage of oil as "energy source" for what?

Would it not be more economical to use Horses rather than electric powered vhicles?
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  #78  
Old 10.12.2009, 14:58
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Ok and usage of oil as "energy source" for what?

Would it not be more economical to use Horses rather than electric powered vhicles?
Sorry - it was an unclear sentence. I mean that oil will be less used as an energy source and more for other uses, e.g. plastics

I see plenty of research into electric vehicles, not very much into commercial horse use. Most transport isn't military or personal anyway and horses would not be a replacement for heavy goods lorries, trains or ships.
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  #79  
Old 10.12.2009, 15:05
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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Sorry - it was an unclear sentence. I mean that oil will be less used as an energy source and more for other uses, e.g. plastics
Ermmm... Plastic etc are or made out of by-products of Oil refining, no?

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I see plenty of research into electric vehicles, not very much into commercial horse use. Most transport isn't military or personal anyway and horses would not be a replacement for heavy goods lorries, trains or ships.
If there would be less oil, there would be less likelihood of transporting heavy goods, even if we did... then there would be other ways. Egyptians did a pretty good job back in the days.

There is enough research going into electric engines, but how would you produce electricity, especially for a moving vehicle?
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  #80  
Old 10.12.2009, 15:13
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Re: Humanity, nice to have known you.

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There is enough research going into electric engines, but how would you produce electricity, especially for a moving vehicle?
Gas, nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, hydro, *maybe* fusion etc etc

You charge batteries for vehicles.

Hydrogen fuel cells are also being improved and improved.

Plastics - no idea.
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