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  #21  
Old 08.09.2007, 13:14
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

Strange that they offered Mrs McCann a deal - 2 years in prison if she confesses. There must be more evidence that the press are not being told about.
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  #22  
Old 08.09.2007, 13:28
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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Strange that they offered Mrs McCann a deal - 2 years in prison if she confesses. There must be more evidence that the press are not being told about.
Allegedly.

Most of these, er, facts are coming from her family, her lawyer or her spokesmen according to the Torygraph.

Wait and see.
And don't believe anything until someone is charged and out in the dock...

As Lob said: they left their children alone so they could go out.
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  #23  
Old 10.09.2007, 10:18
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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As Lob said: they left their children alone so they could go out.
Is that not what baby phones are for and how many of these things have been sold? There are plenty of people who put the kids to bed and then go out for a drink or meal at the hotel bar 50m from the hotel room. They also keep going back to check on the kids as the McCanns did.

Also the "evidence" that the Portuguese have is obviously not so good otherwise they would be arrested. Since this little girl was "taken" both the mother and father have been hounded by the press and were continuously in the company of friends or relatives and the chances of being able to hold something like this quiet given what a newspaper such as the Sun would give for an exclusive are somewhat remote...
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Old 10.09.2007, 10:36
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

I just cant get my head around the fact that these two people (the McCanns) could have harmed their daughter. How could they have held up for so long under all that pressure? I know doctors have to stay cool in many circumstances but this one seems impossible.

I would hate to be in their shoes and hope that things are cleared up soon.
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Old 10.09.2007, 10:57
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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Strange that they offered Mrs McCann a deal - 2 years in prison if she confesses. There must be more evidence that the press are not being told about.
Even stranger is that they claim that happened - the Portuguese law doesn't allow such deals.
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  #26  
Old 11.09.2007, 19:38
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

You can be sure that the portuguese are trumping this out of proportion to deflect the McCanns charges against the newspapers. When the McCanns said they were going to sue the newspapers for having written that they killed their daughter, the newspapers have to turn around and sue the police for having given the newspapers false leads. The police are out to serve their own interests, and have no interest whatsoever to find Madeleine. the police have to create this huge case now against the McCanns to protect themselves against the lawsuit. They have to create this suspicion that McCanns are involved in their daughter's disppearance so that if the newspaper trial ever comes to surface, the police will have already established "reasonable doubt" as their defence. The portuguese are at it. The land of pirates, dont forget!

Its such a terrible crime, that the police do what they like in this country. they totally different from Roman Law countries. they can keep the McCanns in jail while they investigate for 6 months, even if they bring no charges. then the prosecutor can ask for an extension just to mess with them some more. the saddest thing is that all of this is happening only because it is a high profile media case, and becasue the McCanns threatened to sue. And where you have the media, you have lawyers and police running from all directions to get a piece of the action and to have their name in newspapers and to be seen on tv. thats how small minded they all are. No doubt the lawyers are asking for huge sums. You can bet your bottom dollar the Portuguese media, police, lawyers care less about the family, the parents, the child.

The only way the police will ever find Madeleine is if she wanders in off the street into a cafe, where the police spend most of their time.
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Old 11.09.2007, 20:51
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

Excuse me? What on Earth has entitled you to make such statements and comments on the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese people in general? Ad minimum they are offensive and irrespectfull to other members of this Forum. More factual knowledge and less conspiracy/ unsustainable statements would be greatly appreciated.

It is the McCaans that are suspected of crime, not the Police. By the way, the evidences that made the McCanns suspect in this case were found by the British, which kills your theories on taking things out of proportion and creating a case. Not even going to bother to comment on your own particular vision of Portuguese justice and history, but allow me to recommend you to revise them.
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  #28  
Old 11.09.2007, 21:15
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

Well said Lucy. And as I understand the way the Portuguese police system works is that they can only ask certain "searching" questions (ie on record) if they make someone a confirmed suspect. The McCanns have not been charged, they are only suspects in the Portguese legal framework - very different from being a suspect in the UK I believe.

Cue for more "Johny Foreigner" police bashing from the UK gutter press.
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  #29  
Old 12.09.2007, 16:46
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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Excuse me? What on Earth has entitled you to make such statements and comments on the Portuguese Police and the Portuguese people in general? Ad minimum they are offensive and irrespectfull to other members of this Forum. More factual knowledge and less conspiracy/ unsustainable statements would be greatly appreciated.

It is the McCaans that are suspected of crime, not the Police. By the way, the evidences that made the McCanns suspect in this case were found by the British, which kills your theories on taking things out of proportion and creating a case. Not even going to bother to comment on your own particular vision of Portuguese justice and history, but allow me to recommend you to revise them.

Hi Lucy,
No, I have no right to judge the Portuguese system, other than the fact that I worked for a Diplomat in Lisbon for several years, whose daughter is also a lawyer. I did the translations in many cases, for the law firm. I never said a word about the Portuguese people, I was speaking about the system (i.e. the police, the media, the law). I know plenty of really good, decent Portuguese, namely my family. What I have seen in my years of work there is exactly the same as I am seeing in this "breaking news". Of course, the McCanns could be guilty, they could have somehow murdered their daughter and put her body in the car and dumped it somewhere. But that isnt the point of my statement. My point was on the Portuguese Napoleonic system of Law, it is not at all based on Roman Law. So, that means what they determine to be evidence will not necessarily reflect our system of "evidence". They have the right to detain people (not considered arrest) for up to 6 months while they investigate the case. I have seen too many cases in my years there where the poor person got "detained" for not less than 6 months, while the prosecution investigated the case, only for the person to end up being freed, with no charges and with no recourse for suing for damages, becasue thats the law, and the Portuguese prosecutor "has not broken any laws". Moreover, many other cases have been convicted based on total circumstantial evidence, and when it comes time to appeal, the defendant in many cases (criminal as well as civil) never hears another word about the appeal. The defendant has the right to exhaust all three levels of the legal system before he or she can take it to the EU, but it takes years upon years for appeals to be answered, for a reason: to avoid any overturn, no matter the evidence. It is customary for the appealate system to "lose the appeal" through the system, and let it just "dry up on the shelf" by allowing dates for filing motions to accidentally expire, and begin the process all over again. It is more common than not, especially when the defendant is innocent, its their way of not allowing the case to make it to the EU court, of which the Portuguese have the highest violations of human rights. At present, the EU is preparing to enforce the Napoleonic systems (France included) to align their legal processes with the rest of the EU.
Regards the P. police: pa-leeeeze....they are the biggest criminals of all. When they want someone convicted, they plant evidence left and right. It is well known, full stop. Furthermore, it appears they have no idea how to seal off a scene, did you not see how they allowed anyone and everyone with a badge or an ID into that apartment the next day, before the forensics were done? Did you not read the reports of how the police sat in their car the day she went missing, at the Spanish border becasue it was raining? They never stopped any cars to check them, and they already had been told about the disappearance and to check all vehicles. They are notorious for sitting round cafes and brothels, and standing on street corners staring into your vehicle to make sure you are wearing your seatbelt. Believe me, I know in this life you "never say never". So, I could be utterly misguided by my previous years of work there, and the McCanns could be guilty. But wheres the evidence? I could also be right that this smells like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....this just sounds like so many other cases, so many other witch hunts that I have come across over there. But this case is high profile, so they are determined to come out clean, at any price. The worst thing of all is that this child is missing, and the focus has been taken off of finding her. Makes anyone mad, doesnt it!
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  #30  
Old 12.09.2007, 16:51
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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Well said Lucy. And as I understand the way the Portuguese police system works is that they can only ask certain "searching" questions (ie on record) if they make someone a confirmed suspect. The McCanns have not been charged, they are only suspects in the Portguese legal framework - very different from being a suspect in the UK I believe.

Cue for more "Johny Foreigner" police bashing from the UK gutter press.
One does not have to fit the profile of "Johnny Foreigner" from the UK gutter press to have an educated/experienced opinion on this case. It is only my opinion, and as this forum is "off topic", I would say my opinion is simply that, nothing more. I acknowledge I do not know all the facts, and could be wrong.
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  #31  
Old 12.09.2007, 17:13
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

I am glad you added that qualifier , as it saves some of the other portuguese on the forum the trouble of having to discredit some of your sweeping assertions.

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One does not have to fit the profile of "Johnny Foreigner" from the UK gutter press to have an educated/experienced opinion on this case. It is only my opinion, and as this forum is "off topic", I would say my opinion is simply that, nothing more. I acknowledge I do not know all the facts, and could be wrong.
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  #32  
Old 12.09.2007, 17:32
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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My point was on the Portuguese Napoleonic system of Law, it is not at all based on Roman Law.
While I might or might not agree with what you have written in the rest of this post this point is simply incorrect. Portuguese law is like most of Europe based on Roman Law. Like most of Western Europe it also has the influence of the Napoleonic Code but neither of these codes are in themselves bad. They are simply ways of codifying law.
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  #33  
Old 12.09.2007, 19:42
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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While I might or might not agree with what you have written in the rest of this post this point is simply incorrect. Portuguese law is like most of Europe based on Roman Law. Like most of Western Europe it also has the influence of the Napoleonic Code but neither of these codes are in themselves bad. They are simply ways of codifying law.
I welcome healthy debate and constructive criticism always. I fully acknowledge I may be wrong and or incomplete in my communique on points in this case. I agree with you that there are strands of Napoleonic influence in most of European Roman Law. I also agree that Portuguese law is similar to European law. But I must respectfully maintain my point that Portuguese law is not in full compliance with the rest of European Roman Law, based on the EU courts of human rights. The most commonly cited reference in this regard is in the investigative procedures (i.e. the minimum 6 month detainment period before charges are decided). Whereas in the UK (for example) detainment can last for 7 days and upheld in special circumstances for 2 weeks, but charges must be brought at that time or the alleged suspect to be set free.

This is what I am getting at when I criticise the 6 month detainment period: because of this 6 month "preventiva" term, their system is designed to allow the police to investigate after they have detained a suspect, which is in violation of EU human rights declaration for a fair and speedy trial. This type of procedure allows the entire legal system in Portugal to fail in its very basic assumption that a suspect is innocent until proven guilty, which is what is happening here. This law then promotes a culture of laziness and corruption within the police, as they have plenty of time to then go back and fit the circumstances to the outcome they want, which is often the outcome. The rest of what I have written about the police culture in Portugual is my interpretation based on common attitude there, and my observations in work. If the police were compelled to gather all of their evidence before "preventiva" detainment/or declaring suspects, as in Roman Law countries, the McCanns would more than probably not be suspects. But because the media is on this one, they are acting in a frenzy and gathering all these "secret" documents. The secrecy is a bluder, a way to hide what they are doing next and then go back and re-write the case for the trial later. In my opinion, they have to bring this to trial already, because they want to demonstrate to the rest of the world that they are a credible legal system. In my opinion, the only way they can demonstrate credibility is if they are already 100% certain that the McCanns are guilty, which is totally impossible to determine at this stage given the events of the investigation thus far. If they were already sure, why did they allow the McCanns to go home, especially in light of the impending results of the DNA? I know if I had the right to keep a suspect until the DNA came back, I would!

I am only very interested in this case simply because it reminds me of so many other tragic cases against many decent Portuguese people, who have spent 6-12 months of their good lives in prison without charges, only to end up in a court that guarantees conviction so the prosecution can avoid more EU complaints that they lock people up for nothing. From there, the chances of proving the prosecution locked you up for nothing have been extinguished because now a conviction has been entered on the defendant's record, which makes the appeal 100 times more difficult. You have no idea how many cases I have seen that were mandated by the judge to let the suspect free after 6 months for "lack of evidence". I have also seen dates for trials that have been set ten years in advance. So much for fair and speedy. No joke.

to this very day, there still is no evidence against the McCanns. What exists factually at this point is only a media frenzy that is propogating their guilt, but dont forget the media doesnt like the McCanns now because they are suing the media for saying they killed their daughter, as if they dont have a right to protect their name. And it is well known in Portugal that the police release stories through the media. This DNA evidence is far too early in its process to conclude anything. I just feel so very sorry for them. What in the world!!

I admit I have been "emotive" in my original posting, however I have no intent to create any anomosity of any kind on this forum, ever. As I have no intention on inflaming anyone personally, or to incite any kind of inner bad feelings, I would like to close this by inviting anyone back to this thread at the end of this McCann debacle, (2017 if there is to be a trial afterall) and if I have been shown to be completely wrong, I will be more than happy to admit my error in judgement and own it!!
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  #34  
Old 13.09.2007, 11:17
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

First, let me state what we do not disagree on:

- The handling, especially of forensics, by the Portuguese Police has left a lot to be desired.

- One of the big problems in Portugal is the slow justice system.

- There are no doubt croocked coppers in Portugal, as in most police forces. Remember the attempted cover-up of the shooting of the Brazilian electrician, or the "innocent until found Irish" period in Britain?

But, if the PP wants to frame the parents, how could they optain Maddies DNA and plant it when they have been that clumsy with all other forensics? Remember, the testing is outside of their control.

They had to name the parents suspects to ask them certain questions. That is Portuguese law.

The PP have not been able to give many details, that is Portuguese law.

You may not like the laws, but you cannot blame the PP to stick to them.

The parents were allowed to go home, as the crime they were suspected of (Accidential killing) did not carry a sentence high enough to allow detention at this stage. No conspiracy, the jugde did not have a choice.

As for the "deal" (which could have been a badly frased information), my guess is that it was a "fishing expedition" to see if it worked. Not nice, but I could imagine that a lot of places.

I also find it very hard to see how the parents could have got away with it - but if the PP thinks it is a possibility, it is their duty to investigate. And there are some uncertainties of what actually happened on 3rd May, telegraph.co.uk has the best overview I have seen.

I think the McCanns have a good chance of a fair trial if it comes to it - with all that spotlight (including the attention of PM Socrates, who has little patience for incompetence) the prosecutor will be wary of putting a foot wrong.

As for the McCanns - guilty or not, they have arranged an impressive media setup where the sister obviously has the job of slagging off anyone Portuguese.

I hope they find Maddie, preferably alive. Without her, the case will never end.

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  #35  
Old 13.09.2007, 16:22
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

I am not 100% certain about the Portuguese law that states in order to be questioned, the "interrogee/questionee" has to be declared "arguido". (suspect). If my memory serves me correctly, there were cases in which the person was detained and questioned for hours and not allowed to leave regardless of not being under arrest, or before having been formally read their rights or anything. (thats other cases, only to demonstrate what has gone on before). But I will take your word for it.

In my opinion, the DNA evidence will likely phase out to nothing in the end, as it cannot prove anything other than her DNA was in the car which does not implicate them, its a mute point because "secondary transfer" can not be ruled out. Surely experts will be called on this. which is why the PJ (policia judiciaria) is now focused on the latest: her diary!!! Even if they were able to paint a pathological profile that she is capable, they still lack any evidence. On the other hand, these bits and pieces all sewn together may be their "bank of evidence" that they present to portray an overall scenario. If only Madeleine could be considered "evidence" she would have been found by now.

It is easy to presume that the PJ "must have evidence" because we are used to Roman Law that for the most part (there are exceptions of course) that ensures evidence is established within days in order to declare someone a suspect, or to bring charges. The differences in their laws are innumerable, and the more the case goes on, the more the differences surface.

If the McCanns are sent back to Portugal, I worry for them they will end up being imprisoned during the "minimum 6 month preventiva" phase, although by virtue of the fact that they would return, they prove they are not a "flight risk"; they may be deemed a "danger to the community" due to the nature of the supposed crime in question (which is why its called preventiva, just in case the evidence turns out to be true) for the duration of the time it takes the prosecution to determine the charges and present them to the judge. Ludicrous, yes. But it happens a lot. If the judge is fair and lenient, the judge may require them to remain in the area and check in every week or something, or may push the PJ to work faster.

One thing the McCanns have in their favour is that the media is very much on them, so the PJ has to get it right, or the PJ will lose all credibility. (determined by the evidence they present) Normally they would take months to present the evidence to the prosecutor, in this case it seems they are on it right away. I think this one will come down to the judge in Portimao, how far they are willing to let the PJ go in terms of investigation. They have been known to throw cases in the bin right in front of the PJ to illustrate the worth of the case. The judges in Portugal get paid practically nothing, so they are not usually too bad, most of them do this from a civic minded sense of duty.

All these developments....while the child is still missing.....talk about obstruction
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  #36  
Old 13.09.2007, 16:33
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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Inventor of DNA fingerprinting says he'll help the McCanns clear their name

See this Article.
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  #37  
Old 14.09.2007, 01:22
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

Alec Jeffreys is absolutelly corrrect: DNA fingerprinting is a test, not proof of guilt. And the test itself has its limitations.

But, mind you, even the Portuguese police says that the DNA test per se is not conclusive. The Policia Judiciaria (PJ) Director had unprencedentelly brooken the secret of summary last Tuesday to say that the evidences that the 100% match was false. PJ has now declared on several occasions that the evidences found in the car are not conclusive and were being blown out of proportion by the press. Also the investigation hasn't stoped here

Those evidences were found by the British, and analyzed in the UK. It seems that it was the results were leaked to Skynews, they have found conclusive evidences. So, what you have been reading on the British about tpress is not necessarily correct or doing the McCanns a favour.
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Old 14.09.2007, 03:24
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

Really, it escapes me why you are embarking in a cruzade against the Portuguese legal system. What is your aim? To have an unified legal system to the image of the British or the American? Do you really imply that Portugal is a Banana Republic in much need of modernization, and that no one never bothered to revoke the Police state of the old regimen? I read your post and half of what you say doesn't make sense and the other half is just manipulative and distortionate...

Since you are so familiar with witnesses & arguidos, you probably should know the differences between them. As follows:
__ A witness has the obligation of saying the truth at all times, and answer all questions. Lawyer might be present, but it is not mandatory.
__ Arguidos are the "official" suspects to the case. The word has no equivalent in English language, and it should be best translated as "implicated in the case". The arguidos have more legal proteccion than the witnesses. A lawyer must be with them when interrogated by the Police. They have the right to remain silent. Also, they can refuse to answer questions that might compromise them.

For all we know, the McCanns themselves might have requested to be consituted arguidos. to this case. This way, they would acquire rights witnesses don't have. On the other hand, you can only be declared arguido by the Judge when there are strong evidences that you are implicated in a crime. Otherwise you are a witness.

Note that due to secret of summary, we only can afirm that the McCanns are arguidos. We don't know why is that, or what charges they can face. It was their lawyer who told the press that it were considered suspects in involuntary homicide. Nor PJ or Public Ministry have pressed charges for the moment, or made any statements on their involvement. For a fact, we can say that they are arguidos, we cannot say on which capacity.

Since the the McCanns are now arguidos, they have the obligation of presenting themselves to the Police every week. The is the softest coercive measure the judge can impose on you. Actually, this was the only the McCann could get, within the legal framework of this case. Why could they fly back to the UK? The only thing the law states is that they have to communicate the Police within 5 days that they will leave their residence for an extended period. The McCanns gave has official address their home address in the UK, so all was done within the legality. No conspiracy here at all, and indeed they have to check in every week already.

Should there be strong indications that arguido might run away, destroy evidences, commit the same crime again, intimidate witnesses, amongst others, then a Judge might put him in "preventive" prision. So preventive prision it is not something that happens to a "suspect" while the police try to produce evidences, unlike you lead people to believe. It is ruled by a very specific set of requisits, and imposed by a Judge, never the Police. Cannot really understand your explanation of the name. In my world it is called preventiva because it is aim is to avoid the public to be endangered (preventiva means preventive in English)

Concerning DNA - see post above. As for the diary, the Portuguese press has been showing pages of a diary just this evening. On the legal side - PJ is waiting for authorization of the Judge to study it. A pathological profile has to be established by a medical professional, at the request of a Judge. Never the PJ. Pathological nature is not proof of anything. On a side - if PJ were indeed authorized to study the diary, it would have been in secret of summary. Meaning, press would have not been able to publish it.

Since you are so familiar with the case, you probably should have asked PJ is indeed still looking for Maddy. They have now turned to an area close to Praia da Luz, as stated by the PJ Director. You probably know as well as everybody else that after a while, the search stops, and that investigation becomes dependent to any leads given by the public. Not just in Portugal, it is all over the place the same. So at this point, the Police is going far behiound of what it normally done. It is not because they are puting their energies into framing the parents - they just have no leads to follow. Same has happened to Ylena in Switzerland, witouth going much furhter... has anyone seen her in the news lattely?

Last but by no means least - the case has been forward to the Prosecutor Office in Evora. An answer within 10 days was promised. It is this Judge who is going to decide on more aggressive coercion measures, press charges, etc. Not months, not years, but days. And the McCanns have had totally freedmon of movements.















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I am not 100% certain about the Portuguese law that states in order to be questioned, the "interrogee/questionee" has to be declared "arguido". (suspect). If my memory serves me correctly, there were cases in which the person was detained and questioned for hours and not allowed to leave regardless of not being under arrest, or before having been formally read their rights or anything. (thats other cases, only to demonstrate what has gone on before). But I will take your word for it.

In my opinion, the DNA evidence will likely phase out to nothing in the end, as it cannot prove anything other than her DNA was in the car which does not implicate them, its a mute point because "secondary transfer" can not be ruled out. Surely experts will be called on this. which is why the PJ (policia judiciaria) is now focused on the latest: her diary!!! Even if they were able to paint a pathological profile that she is capable, they still lack any evidence. On the other hand, these bits and pieces all sewn together may be their "bank of evidence" that they present to portray an overall scenario. If only Madeleine could be considered "evidence" she would have been found by now.

It is easy to presume that the PJ "must have evidence" because we are used to Roman Law that for the most part (there are exceptions of course) that ensures evidence is established within days in order to declare someone a suspect, or to bring charges. The differences in their laws are innumerable, and the more the case goes on, the more the differences surface.

If the McCanns are sent back to Portugal, I worry for them they will end up being imprisoned during the "minimum 6 month preventiva" phase, although by virtue of the fact that they would return, they prove they are not a "flight risk"; they may be deemed a "danger to the community" due to the nature of the supposed crime in question (which is why its called preventiva, just in case the evidence turns out to be true) for the duration of the time it takes the prosecution to determine the charges and present them to the judge. Ludicrous, yes. But it happens a lot. If the judge is fair and lenient, the judge may require them to remain in the area and check in every week or something, or may push the PJ to work faster.

One thing the McCanns have in their favour is that the media is very much on them, so the PJ has to get it right, or the PJ will lose all credibility. (determined by the evidence they present) Normally they would take months to present the evidence to the prosecutor, in this case it seems they are on it right away. I think this one will come down to the judge in Portimao, how far they are willing to let the PJ go in terms of investigation. They have been known to throw cases in the bin right in front of the PJ to illustrate the worth of the case. The judges in Portugal get paid practically nothing, so they are not usually too bad, most of them do this from a civic minded sense of duty.

All these developments....while the child is still missing.....talk about obstruction
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Old 15.09.2007, 18:36
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

I know why it escapes you when you choose such descriptives as “embarking on a crusade” against the Portuguese legal system. Its simply because what does not exist will always escape you. “Banana republic”? Your interpretations of what I have written are your words, not mine! If “Banana Republic” comes to your mind, then so be it! I like bananas, but please don’t put them in my mouth! Maybe you don’t know this, but all systems have big problems, Portugal just happens to have many more problems than other systems in the EU! Its not my opinion, it’s a fact.

In my opinion you are “embarking on a crusade” against a user on the forum. I never said anything against anyone personally on this forum, if you care to state otherwise, would you please quote it. I am certainly allowed to comment my experiences as long as they are not personally targeting anyone. If what I wrote about the Portuguese system personally offended you, then you must investigate why-on your own time. It might be more useful if you stick to the subject, and not wander off into personal accusations against fellow users. My postings were only for healthy debate, not personal attacks.

My aim is aligned with millions of others’ views across the world that see what I see, that the P-system has failed and is failing to protect the innocent, and is propagated by the media. I have already stated several times that I may be incorrect on some points of the case; so I find your statement that “since you are so familiar with the case” a clearly provocative sign that either A) you have not read the postings carefully, or if you have read and understood the postings, B) you are intentionally provoking an argument because you are taking everything too personally for some unknown reason. You also state that I am writing from a “manipulative and distortionate” position. Wow, you are really going too far with the forensic profiling here. Are you a psychiatrist? What could I gain in being manipulative? Are there scoring points on this forum for manipulation, with gifts at the end of the year for the most points? As they say, don’t shoot the messenger if you don’t like the message. I didn’t create the bad system, it speaks for itself without anyone “manipulating” anything!

Like millions across the world, I am discussing the problems with the Portuguese system, and posting my opinions and my experiences that are of direct relation to this thread. Entitlement of opinions is characteristic of a free society, something that only occurred in Portugal in 1976, on paper anyway. I have read about dozens of innocent families destroyed by this system, so forgive me for saying so, but I do not support any legal entity that is abusive and corrupted throughout, anywhere in the world! You make it sound as though the PJ have done everything right so far, which is laughable. Whether or not my aim is to have the Portuguese legal system mirror UK is irrelevant. My professional experiences in Portugal have no bearing on whether I think systems should mirror one another. Actually, the EU would like the systems to mirror one another. Why are you so defensive when someone points out injustices in the Portuguese legal system? As has already been clarified, it is not to say the people are bad! Surely you can tell the difference here.

I think it positive that you have cleared up the media points, that it was the lawyer for the McCann’s who made the statements to the media that they were suspects in involuntary homicide. I hope the McCann’s redirect their lawsuit against the media onto their lawyer. Now the media can sue the McCann’s lawyer rather than the PJ. As for the DNA debacle, I thought this was why the McCann’s became “suspects”, and now it is deemed inconclusive. Surely they will no longer be held suspects now that the DNA is no longer an issue.

You wrote, “So preventive prision it is not something that happens to a "suspect" while the police try to produce evidences, unlike you lead people to believe”. What a pity you defend such a false statement. I must respectfully request that you pay a visit to the legal archives of Portugal and read up on just how many people sat in prison before having been charged-for a minimum of 6 months. You are definitely a billion percent wrong when you defend the PJ by stating that they do not put “suspects” or “witnesses” or “arguidos” in preventiva, you really must stop such seriously false statements. I am crystal clear on this. It was/is a common topic of discussion in the offices where I worked; All the Portuguese I know are the first ones to comment on how unfair the system is, it is not a big secret! All the lawyers in Portugal are aware of the unfair laws, they all agree the system needs to be changed. Whether the innocent are classified as “witness, suspect, arguido, or whatever” my point is these are innocent people being thrown in jail with regular convict populations before having charges brought against them. Yes, together with convicts of serious crimes-for 6 months. This is a documented fact. I made this point because I am afraid for the McCanns being sent to jail. As you wrote, “In my world it is called preventiva because it is aim is to avoid the public to be endangered (preventiva means preventive in English)”. The semantics of definitions are not my area here. It seems you have been helpful to clear up this part of your world for the reader. As an outsider to your world, I find this clarification to have been helpful. Still anyone can see the human rights abuses here, certainly the EU court of human rights has seen these abuses dozens of times.

Its just not in my interest to enter into debate on p-law, not the point of my postings. Yet, here I am debating this. I will not do that again. I cant even believe I have spent this much time replying, when there are so many more positive things to do!! Rest assured I am crystal clear on what I have written. My experiences are not clouded by “manipulation” or “distortion”. I am a certified research analyst with years of experience in Lisbon. I never said I was an "expert" in law. Unless you are a p- lawyer, or have a professional background in p-law, do not suggest that you know more than people at that level, because you are seriously wrong. If you are someone in that level, then I would suggest you head on over to a local café and listen in to the lawyers talking. I am not out to defame the Portuguese system, it does not need anyone’s assistance here. It has been able to defame its own name all by itself for years and years. Do your own research on this.

When you choose your words, choose carefully. Be prepared to be challenged and corrected when you make unfair personal attacks against people’s character, whom you do not know.

I would like to just close here with a citation from article on line:
“The couple's Portuguese lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, has hit out at his country's judicial system in a scathing interview with a local newspaper in which he declared: "Justice in Portugal is slow and incapable of producing proof."”.
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Old 16.09.2007, 12:49
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Re: please HELP US TO FIND Maddy McCann

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Madeleine: Police on trial for torturing mother of another missing girl

This story in todays press.
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