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  #21  
Old 01.05.2010, 18:42
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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From every deal I have seen done; it has HAD to be done "black" so to me ALL not just majority but one would assume that Greek civil servants on wages/salried would be paid straight and I would assume that makes up the Euros700 per month average.
but in bribery both parties are equally guilty. if they asked it's also because they sensed that you're prone to give in. why didn't you refuse?
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  #22  
Old 01.05.2010, 18:46
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Oil theoretically is far too high (should be around US$50) but saying that there is a large demand for oil/petrol in China and India as they are now the biggest buyers of cars in the world (more than USA) and likely to grow.
Too high from whose point of view?

India and China are the top 2 oil buyers at the moment. We had peak oil supply a few years ago. Hence the recent $147 price because supply could not meet demand. India and China arguably get higher marginal utility from an extra $ paid per barrel of oil because they are building out their infrastructure, as opposed to the West, who are mainly maintaining it.
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  #23  
Old 01.05.2010, 18:50
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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and that means that the majority is being paid "black" ?! nice...
BBC radio 4's 'Today' programme stated that many Greek companies and employees were not paying the full amount of tax they should be.

If Germany feels it can no longer continue to pay reparation for the Second World War (and they have more than paid now) and the Greek workforce want to keep their perks, then the answer is for Greece to leave the Euro.

Greece could then do whatever they like - such as paying pensions in 'New Drachma', tiddlywinks or whatever...
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Old 01.05.2010, 18:56
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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BBC radio 4's 'Today' programme stated that many Greek companies and employees were not paying the full amount of tax they should be.

If Germany feels it can no longer continue to pay reparation for the Second World War (and they have more than paid now) and the Greek workforce want to keep their perks, then the answer is for Greece to leave the Euro.

Greece could then do whatever they like - such as paying pensions in 'New Drachma', tiddlywinks or whatever...
corruption in greece is a big problem and i'm the last to deny it! however, i do not think it is fair to make generalisations about the "majority" of greeks being paid in black. from my experience, it is the richest and more powerful ones that are the most corrupted (ie the ones owning the companies rather than the employees themselves).

also, tax evasion is one thing (bad of course) but it can be done in other ways apart from being paid black
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  #25  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:05
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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corruption in greece is a big problem and i'm the last to deny it! however, i do not think it is fair to make generalisations about the "majority" of greeks being paid in black. from my experience, it is the richest and more powerful ones that are the most corrupted (ie the ones owning the companies rather than the employees themselves).

also, tax evasion is one thing (bad of course) but it can be done in other ways apart from being paid black
That is just not only in Greece my friend, but every country in the world.
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  #26  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:06
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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but in bribery both parties are equally guilty. if they asked it's also because they sensed that you're prone to give in. why didn't you refuse?
Grow Up and be realistic.
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  #27  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:20
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Too high from whose point of view?

India and China are the top 2 oil buyers at the moment. We had peak oil supply a few years ago. Hence the recent $147 price because supply could not meet demand. India and China arguably get higher marginal utility from an extra $ paid per barrel of oil because they are building out their infrastructure, as opposed to the West, who are mainly maintaining it.

Off Subject:

When oil was at US$147; that was purely speculation - hedging; nothing to do with actual physical requirements of oil at the time.

If you were to actually calculate the price of oil on an inflation base it should actually be around US$50 a barrel. The demand for oil is going up in Asia but going down in Europe/USA at the moment.

The share price index (Footsie FT100 etc) are exactly the same as mentioned previously. There is no justification for the price; they are hyped. I could be wrong.
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  #28  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:22
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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corruption in greece is a big problem and i'm the last to deny it! however, i do not think it is fair to make generalisations about the "majority" of greeks being paid in black. from my experience, it is the richest and more powerful ones that are the most corrupted (ie the ones owning the companies rather than the employees themselves).

also, tax evasion is one thing (bad of course) but it can be done in other ways apart from being paid black
Quote:
...tax income was hit because of widespread tax evasion.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8508136.stm

This is not "tax avoidance" but:
Quote:
tax evasion is the general term for efforts to not pay taxes by illegal means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avo...nd_tax_evasion

...and finally from http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/widespread?view=uk

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widespreadadjective spread among a large number or over a large area.
So I conclude that a "large number" of Greek citizens are using illegal means to not pay taxes...
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  #29  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:24
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8508136.stm

This is not "tax avoidance" but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avo...nd_tax_evasion

...and finally from http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/widespread?view=uk



So I conclude that a "large number" of Greek citizens are using illegal means to not pay taxes...
my objection to begin with was towards the claim that "the majority of greeks are being paid black" not about tax evasion.

thanks for the english language lesson, though!
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Old 01.05.2010, 19:28
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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my objection to begin with was towards the claim that "the majority of greeks are being paid black" not about tax evasion.
Why are they being paid black? To avoid paying tax. Thus you can hardly object to one and not the other...
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  #31  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:30
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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So I conclude that a "large number" of Greek citizens are using illegal means to not pay taxes...
It has always been like that in Southern Europe - Italy, Cyprus, Greece. Their government increases tax further for the short fall and so there is even more incentive to "avoid" the tax and continues to spiral. Eventually the people object and there is civil unrest as per Greece now.

I think that Greece will have no choice but to come out of the Euro unless Mercal is daft and bails Greece out. Mercel/Germany/EU would only suffer when the other countries governments follow begging and this would be even worse for the Euro when basically Germany gets into financial difficulty itself financing incompetant country governments.
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  #32  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:31
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Why are they being paid black? To avoid paying tax. Thus you can hardly object to one and not the other...
of course i can. because, as i said, there are many ways to evade taxes apart from being paid black.

and because i have lived there and all my family and friends live there and they are not paid black. that does not mean of course that noone is!
also, some people accept to be paid black because it is the only way that they would get hired, not really to avoid taxes.

EDIT: just to add that my objection began as cashboy claimed that the 700 euro salary i claimed as average might not reflect the truth average salary due to the majority of people being paid "black"
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  #33  
Old 01.05.2010, 19:33
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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it is the only way that they would get hired, not really to avoid taxes.
And to add to that; it is often the only way for foreign businesses to get the business.
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  #34  
Old 03.05.2010, 19:52
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

I cannot believe that Germany has given the OK to bail out Greece.

People seem to believe that it will protect the Euro.
How wrong they are; it is going to actually weaken the Euro long term.

This is because there is no way that Greece will be able to stick to the terms of the European Bank and IMF.

Greece should have been left to go bankrupt; it probably would have been easier for their citizens as well and the world would believe that the Euro was a strong secure bank/currency not bailing out anyone.

Who is going to come after Greece then hands open begging?
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Old 04.05.2010, 00:34
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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I have been telling people; the Swiss franc is the currency to hold.
If Mercel (who I had respect for) cannot see what is going to happen; then she is as stupid (hard to believe) as Gordon (The Moron) Brown and needs to go.
How on Earth did your 2nd post about Greek finances. did you manage to get yet another slag off Britain's leader / Britain?

I hope you slag off Britain to all your British colleagues in the office where you work.
I can just picture you muttering, "Lousy Britain. What a shi7hole. Oh I hate this place so much.", in a Bart Simpson kinda way.
I'm surprised you get any work done with all your seething hatred. Does this impact your performance?

What do your colleagues think/say about you?

Anyway sorry Cashboy, back on topic.
I reckon as many people should support Greece in one of the simplest ways possible by holidaying there this year.
Surely that would assist their economy (in a small way but also help a bit with moral support) and tourists wouldn't mind this 'act of charity' at all.

The Greeks I saw interviewed on the BBC news were all surprisingly relaxed and smiling despite the headlines, mind you they weren't actually interviewing the protestors in Athens.
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Old 04.05.2010, 00:49
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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I reckon as many people should support Greece in one of the simplest ways possible by holidaying there this year.
We would if any of the hotel managers would ever answer their emails (I guess some aspects of Greek culture will never change, no matter what technology is available... )!

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The Greeks I saw interviewed on the BBC news were all surprisingly relaxed and smiling despite the headlines.

Greeks get through. They always do.

That's why they're so special.
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Old 04.05.2010, 00:52
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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I reckon as many people should support Greece in one of the simplest ways possible by holidaying there this year.
Why would we support a nations of lazy, surly Greeks resting on the (actual) laurels of a culture that peaked 3000 years ago. Not when we have such a wonderful alternative in Turkey! Same food (well, better), friendlier people, richer, living culture and much more! Visit Turkey - it's awesome!
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  #38  
Old 04.05.2010, 00:52
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

What it boils down to is that Brussels wanted to get as many countries onto the Euro, and turned a blind eye to the realities of the various countries. Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and the other East-Block countries just can't be in the same currency basket like France, Germany, Holland etc.

The disparity between the buying power in those "poorer" countries and those of the richer countries to too big to be sustainable. Greece is supportable, and so is Portugal, but Spain's debt is 15x higher so Germany/France can not save them. Easy picking for speculators.

Either way, Spain will be the tipping point where everyone will just let them fail, as they won't have the reserves to help anymore.
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  #39  
Old 04.05.2010, 00:59
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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How on Earth did your 2nd post about Greek finances. did you manage to get yet another slag off Britain's leader / Britain?

I hope you slag off Britain to all your British colleagues in the office where you work.
I can just picture you muttering, "Lousy Britain. What a shi7hole. Oh I hate this place so much.", in a Bart Simpson kinda way.
I'm surprised you get any work done with all your seething hatred. Does this impact your performance?
Yep, I like to be consistent and slag off Britain to all British colleagues and all Nationalities as I am not prejudist.

I don't do a lot of work at the moment as I don't want to earn too much in the UK to pay taxes for the scroungers and the mismanagement of the country.

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What do your colleagues think/say about you?
I am very unenglish in my "being concerned with what others think" and I may as well mention that the reason people find themselves in such debt was buying stuff to impress others for that reason if you think about it.

Perhaps it might occur to you that I am angry about the situation in the UK because I actually care about it unlike the majority who are just content to go with the flow.


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Anyway sorry Cashboy, back on topic.
I reckon as many people should support Greece in one of the simplest ways possible by holidaying there this year.
Surely that would assist their economy (in a small way but also help a bit with moral support) and tourists wouldn't mind this 'act of charity' at all.

The Greeks I saw interviewed on the BBC news were all surprisingly relaxed and smiling despite the headlines, mind you they weren't actually interviewing the protestors in Athens.
The Greeks will no doubt riot more; go on strike because they couldn't give a hoot except about themselves and that is why the country is in the state it is. The problem is that so many people in the West have the same attitude and can't be bothered about pride and morals.
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  #40  
Old 04.05.2010, 01:00
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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What it boils down to is that Brussels wanted to get as many countries onto the Euro, and turned a blind eye to the realities of the various countries. Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and the other East-Block countries just can't be in the same currency basket like France, Germany, Holland etc.

The disparity between the buying power in those "poorer" countries and those of the richer countries to too big to be sustainable. Greece is supportable, and so is Portugal, but Spain's debt is 15x higher so Germany/France can not save them. Easy picking for speculators.

Either way, Spain will be the tipping point where everyone will just let them fail, as they won't have the reserves to help anymore.
Love bashing Brussels, but it was not only Eurocrats wanting too much, but politicians literally committing fraud to polish the books... obviously the weaker countries tried everything to get into the Euro as it would promise "free" benefits in boom times.

I think not only the Euro was rolled out too fast, but the entire EU. The only way to fix it is in my eyes a Wikipedia reference-linkMulti-speed_Europe, but that is of course pretty impossible now where all member states have far reaching veto rights...
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