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  #141  
Old 10.05.2010, 07:29
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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So I posted before that the bailout of GR is about the banks not the people.
I found this very interesting graph, enjoy!
It also explains why some people think that there is more trouble ahead.
Full size version of this can be seen by clicking on the link in post #50 of, this thread, a little bit easier to read.

Very worrisome situation indeed.
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  #142  
Old 10.05.2010, 16:32
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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I did apologize, i had no chance to correct my mistakes. So please forgive me if i have used 2times one g too often.
Have you read the post of that guy who thratened to kill swiss citizen when he get back to his country of origin?

Could we go back to the topic please?
Where did you apologise? If I missed it I'm happy to retract what I said.

The only thing I saw you post was:

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at least i got the political correct "n" word spelling right.

Last edited by Gastro Gnome; 10.05.2010 at 20:52.
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  #143  
Old 10.05.2010, 23:01
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Full size version of this can be seen by clicking on the link in post #50 of, this thread, a little bit easier to read.

Very worrisome situation indeed.
& today
"A day after European leaders agreed on a $900 billion rescue package, credit rating agency Moody's cautioned investors that two of the euro zone's hardest hit countries aren't out of the woods just yet.

In the last month, Moody's has said several times that debt-strapped Greece and Portugal are under review for future downgrades to their credit ratings. But in a report to investors today, the agency saidthose downgrades could occur within a month.

Greece's downgrade would probably be more "substantial" than previously indicated, with cuts to the Baa range, or just above junk status, the report said."
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  #144  
Old 11.05.2010, 14:11
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Full size version of this can be seen by clicking on the link in post #50 of, this thread, a little bit easier to read.

Very worrisome situation indeed.
ooppss missed that
sorry for double post
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  #145  
Old 09.02.2012, 16:10
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

Half a compromise has been reached,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16962960
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  #146  
Old 12.02.2012, 10:50
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

I think that today the Greek parliament will vote in favour of the rescue deal now up to 145bn from 130bn.
Whether the country will keep to the deal & stay in the euro is for me doubtful.

As the old salesman's maxim goes; take the money & run.
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  #147  
Old 12.02.2012, 15:46
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Half a compromise has been reached,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16962960

It seems they are still blocking the pension reforms. Silly greeks.

For those of you who dont know, look into their military and widow pension system. Youngster get to live a party lifestyle without ever having to work...
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  #148  
Old 12.02.2012, 15:54
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

DM

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120,000 families claiming 'ghost pensions' for relatives who died years ago
RP Online DE

But their pensions are already low.
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  #149  
Old 12.02.2012, 16:18
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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DM



RP Online DE

But their pensions are already low.
And that just refers to the "illegal" means of pension fraud.

Greece has a system of Pension inheritance, which is legal, that also needs to be reformed...
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  #150  
Old 12.02.2012, 23:12
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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It seems they are still blocking the pension reforms. Silly greeks.
Yes, quite silly, aren't they?...why can't they simply accept to not get back any of the money they'be been paying all those years for their pensions? why can't they just bite the bullet and try to live below the poverty line?
I am sure you're aware (surely from first experience) of the average pension in Greece currently, and the luxurious lifestyle all those pensioners enjoy... even after the substantial cuts they had to take in the past 2 years.
No wonder they are opposing pension reforms, them Cohiba double coronas don't come cheap

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For those of you who dont know, look into their military and widow pension system. Youngster get to live a party lifestyle without ever having to work...
Please, do enlighten us...first time I hear of this particular one
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  #151  
Old 13.02.2012, 00:00
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Yes, quite silly, aren't they?...why can't they simply accept to not get back any of the money they'be been paying all those years for their pensions? why can't they just bite the bullet and try to live below the poverty line?
I am sure you're aware (surely from first experience) of the average pension in Greece currently, and the luxurious lifestyle all those pensioners enjoy... even after the substantial cuts they had to take in the past 2 years.
No wonder they are opposing pension reforms, them Cohiba double coronas don't come cheap
Um I think you are totally missing the point.

No one is saying they shouldnt have a pension, or to lower the pension rate. Here we are talking about reform of the rules governing the handout of pensions...



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Please, do enlighten us...first time I hear of this particular one
Do your research. Im not gonna go into that now. As i've said - look into inherited military pensions and the rules governing it. Yes even children can inherit their parents military pensions...
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  #152  
Old 13.02.2012, 11:19
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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I think that today the Greek parliament will vote in favour of the rescue deal now up to 145bn from 130bn.
Whether the country will keep to the deal & stay in the euro is for me doubtful.

As the old salesman's maxim goes; take the money & run.
As posted, the Greek parliament did vote in favour of the rescue deal; roughly 70% in favour.

Now we will see if they keep to the deal.

Why the private creditors agreed to a voluntary 70% haircut is beyond me; somebody should sue somebody
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  #153  
Old 13.02.2012, 11:25
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Why the private creditors agreed to a voluntary 70% haircut is beyond me; somebody should sue somebody
Maybe because it's better than a 100% haircut?

I think it's only a matter of weeks before they are defaulted and out.
There is no hope for them now.

Piling unpayable debt on top of unpayable debt is not the answer for them.
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  #154  
Old 16.02.2012, 21:50
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Maybe because it's better than a 100% haircut?

I think it's only a matter of weeks before they are defaulted and out.
There is no hope for them now.

Piling unpayable debt on top of unpayable debt is not the answer for them.
Yes but if 100% then I assume they would be able to claim on CDRs - if they had chosen to cover the risk that way?

I see the ECB is not taking part in the haircut; they plan to get 100% - or more assuming they bought the Greek bonds when they were already heavily discounted?

One law for the rich (or well connected) & one law for the rest?
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  #155  
Old 19.02.2012, 13:46
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Yes but if 100% then I assume they would be able to claim on CDRs - if they had chosen to cover the risk that way?

I see the ECB is not taking part in the haircut; they plan to get 100% - or more assuming they bought the Greek bonds when they were already heavily discounted?

One law for the rich (or well connected) & one law for the rest?
Seems the Greek parliament are proposing to pass a regulation next week to make all the bond holders take part in the haircut.

I assume all will not include the ECB?

Does this mean the haircut is still voluntary & so will not trigger CDRs?
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  #156  
Old 28.02.2012, 15:01
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Seems the Greek parliament are proposing to pass a regulation next week to make all the bond holders take part in the haircut.

I assume all will not include the ECB?

Does this mean the haircut is still voluntary & so will not trigger CDRs?
A possible answer to my question from the Wall Street Journal, see below.
Sorry this so long -

Hey Fatman - where will this leave your friend who was buying Greek bonds on the assumption that private investors will not be forced to participate in the haircut!

"Greece became the first euro-zone member to officially be rated in default Monday, 13 years after the single European currency was adopted in a program that was expected to strengthen the European Union.
Standard & Poor's on Monday cut Greece's long-term credit rating to selective default from double-CC. The move was expected, as S&P said earlier this month it would consider Greece in default if it retroactively added so-called collective-action clauses to its sovereign debt as part of an effort to force creditors to participate in a bond-swap offering. Greece's parliament approved that measure late last week, giving S&P the ammunition it needed to cut the rating.
It is expected that other ratings agencies, including Moody's Investors Service and Fitch Ratings, will follow suit once Greece proceeds with the debt restructuring.
The bigger question remains whether the bond swap or collective-action clauses will trigger payments on credit-default swap contracts. The International Swaps and Derivatives Association, or ISDA, which determines when CDS payments are triggered, has said it would decide Wednesday on whether the debt swap constitutes a default in its view and thus would trigger payments on CDS, which essentially act as insurance against a bond default. Euro-zone officials have worried that widespread CDS payments could ripple through the euro-zone financial system and exacerbate the region-wide debt crisis of which Greece has become emblematic. "
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  #157  
Old 29.02.2012, 20:19
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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A possible answer to my question from the Wall Street Journal, see below.
Sorry this so long -

Hey Fatman - where will this leave your friend who was buying Greek bonds on the assumption that private investors will not be forced to participate in the haircut!

"The bigger question remains whether the bond swap or collective-action clauses will trigger payments on credit-default swap contracts. The International Swaps and Derivatives Association, or ISDA, which determines when CDS payments are triggered, has said it would decide Wednesday on whether the debt swap constitutes a default in its view and thus would trigger payments on CDS, which essentially act as insurance against a bond default. Euro-zone officials have worried that widespread CDS payments could ripple through the euro-zone financial system and exacerbate the region-wide debt crisis of which Greece has become emblematic. "

Correction "a meeting will be held at 11AM GMT on Thursday, March 1 to determine whether a credit event has occurred (ref. Greece)."
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  #158  
Old 01.03.2012, 16:08
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Correction "a meeting will be held at 11AM GMT on Thursday, March 1 to determine whether a credit event has occurred (ref. Greece)."
The committee decided today that there was no credit event so there will be no pay out of CDSs.
Not surprising but nevertheless an extraordinary decision. How can they say no credit event when about 30% of the bond holders are not volunteering for this haircut & are forced to participate?

Wonder what the knock-on effect will be on the future purchase of sovereign bonds & the purchase of CDSs to insure them? If I was a big investor I would be very very cautious about buying any more sovereign bonds...
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  #159  
Old 01.03.2012, 16:22
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Wonder what the knock-on effect will be on the future purchase of sovereign bonds & the purchase of CDSs to insure them? If I was a big investor I would be very very cautious about buying any more sovereign bonds...
Even if CDS contracts are not paying out, they are marking Greece at default. I have not been involved with Greek CDSs luckily but I would assume you should be able to close them at a decent gain even when the bid-asks are probably very wide
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Old 02.03.2012, 10:59
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Re: Financially Skint Greece

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Even if CDS contracts are not paying out, they are marking Greece at default. I have not been involved with Greek CDSs luckily but I would assume you should be able to close them at a decent gain even when the bid-asks are probably very wide
From today's papers & similar to what I posted "Fears for CDS market after Greek decision; it might be a non-event, not a credit event. But Thursday’s decision that insurance-like instruments should not pay out on Greek bonds has potentially huge repercussions for the eurozone debt markets.

Investors and traders fear the decision by the International Swaps and Derivatives Association not to trigger a credit event in Greek credit default swaps will undermine the entire multitrillion-dollar CDS market."
Myself I do not think the effect will be that serious because major banks & traders know CDsS are not a 100% insurance but I guess we will just have to wait & see what is the effect.
Presumably once the Greeks have actually forced the remaining creditors to take a hair cut then it will be a credit event & teh CDSs will have to pay out. Then the question will be "how much" ?
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