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Old 29.05.2010, 22:05
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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I was discussing this with my wife today and I realised that I am not particularly Pro-Choice. But what I am is Pro-Option.
Double plus funny!
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Old 29.05.2010, 22:31
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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I'd be very curious about both Planned Parenthood and Stopes... just because they are "associated" with abortion, how much of their business is derived from abortion.
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Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 82 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 621,000 unintended pregnancies each year.

Planned Parenthood provides nearly one million Pap tests and more than 850,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.

Planned Parenthood provides more than 3.3 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV, each year.

Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.

Planned Parenthood affiliates provide educational programs to more than 1.2 million young people and adults each year.
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"Women should be given the facts and make a choice for themselves. Very few abortions [1.45%] are performed later than 20 weeks. We think it's a red herring anyway. The debate should be about increasing access for earlier abortions, decreasing stigma about abortion, and getting rid of doctors' signatures, which is a barrier [two doctors still need to agree to an abortion request]. If you do all that, abortions might not decrease, but they will move up to safer gestation periods."

Hovig points out that while the Department for International Development is good at pushing governments in Africa and Asia to invest more in education, family planning and abortion services, the government is far less proactive here. The teenage pregnancy rate recently went up for the first time in six years, and Britain has the highest rate in Europe.

Hovig believes that birth control shouldn't be so medicalised, that morning-after pills should be as easy to come by as painkillers. He says the most frustrating aspect of his job is that family planning is so easy, yet so little is invested in it. "I think [politicians] are too removed from the day-to-day of women's lives," he says. "It's frustrating because there is so much that can be done. We have the solutions."
As an aside, my wife used Planned Parenthood for over a decade and never for an abortion, only "family planning." Strange that.
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Old 29.05.2010, 22:33
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

I think most people pro-life and pro-choice don't realize how brutal abortions can be.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap4.html

Now if a baby (fetus if you call it that) is born alive during an abortion. Does it have the right to live then, or should they suffocate it, to complete the abortion?
  #204  
Old 29.05.2010, 22:47
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

Higgybaby, I haven't changed my mind, but I have been interested in some of the reasoned views I've read. Some comments have given me additional information that I didn't have.

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In your nuclear raid example, It looks like you would pick the weakest to the strongest. Quite a strong and brave man to do that.
Some may argue on the other hand to actually help the weakest, even if it meant their own demise. But to each his own.
Wrong. Never said anything of the sort. Check my posts again, this time without preconceptions. If you want to know how I feel about abortion, look up Dougal Breakfast's earlier post on this thread.

Regarding your comment about ignorant people not acknowledging that a foetus is more than a bunch of cells, who are you to say who is ignorant, given that in the preceding sentence you acknowledged that we don't know all the answers about human life?

Economisto, a while back you wrote something along the lines that you didn't like organisations like Marie S because you felt people who turned to them (or turned to abortions) should have all the information presented to them. What additional information do you think is missing?
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  #205  
Old 29.05.2010, 23:00
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Society and government has a say in people's lives all the time.
Umm! not about what I do with my own eggs. Well not in the free world anyway. If someone does not want a kid and they accidentally get pregnant then there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong in having an abortion at the first sign of pregnancy ie. first missed period. It's people like you who put humongous amount of emotional baggage on women......as if they just committed mass genocide Women have enough problems to deal with without wannabe do gooders getting on the case.

If you are into the whole God is against it bull then make sure not to have one yourself and leave it to God to punish us warped minded sinners

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Where do vegeterians get the right to kill a vegetable or fruit and eat it?
You comparing eating a fruit with killing an adult vertebrate animal with fully developed nervous system? Fruit is a seed and does not destroy the plant so equivalent in animals would be consuming some of it's bodily fluids rofl.

My point was to get off your high horses as aborting the foetus is no better or worse than say killing an adult animal. So yes the same "special thing" that gives you the right to eat an animal gives me the right to have an abortion if the need ever arises.

You come across as a hypocrite when you fight for "the right" of a foetus and "it's feelings" while ignoring the "feelings" of a fully mature adult vertebrate animal with a fully developed nervous system So yes I am a hypocrite but at least I FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE that. Time you did too!
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Should we all just eat rocks and dirt?
Should we all just keep having babies even if we don't want any?
  #206  
Old 29.05.2010, 23:09
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Umm! not about what I do with my own eggs. Well not in the free world anyway. If someone does not want a kid and they accidentally get pregnant then there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong in having an abortion at the first sign of pregnancy ie. first missed period. It's people like you who put humongous amount of emotional baggage on women......as if they just committed mass genocide Women have enough problems to deal with without wannabe do gooders getting on the case.

If you are into the whole God is against it bull then make sure not to have one yourself and leave it to God to punish us warped minded sinners

You comparing eating a fruit with killing an adult vertebrate animal with fully developed nervous system? Fruit is a seed and does not destroy the plant so equivalent in animals would be consuming some of it's bodily fluids rofl.

My point was to get off your high horses as aborting the foetus is no better or worse than say killing an adult animal. So yes the same "special thing" that gives you the right to eat an animal gives me the right to have an abortion if the need ever arises.

So you come across as a hypocrite when you fight for "the right" of a feotus and "it's feelings" while ignoring the "feelings" of a fully mature adult vertebrate animal with a fully developed nervous system So yes I am a hypocrite but atleast I FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE that. Time you did too!
Should we all just keep having babies even if we don't want any?
You brought up God, I haven't.
Abortion is what it is, no denying it , no matter what your view. As i asked in another post if a foetus is born alive during an abortion should the baby (it's outside the womb) still be killed.
  #207  
Old 29.05.2010, 23:12
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

silly silly. "say this like it's a bad thing" not I didn't.

"Pro-option not pro-choice", synonyms. Really seems like your entire post is made without reading/understanding the previous 11 pages of posts.

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You say this like it is a bad thing. Women should have the right to choose. Since they don't seem to have as much choice in their everyday lives, the only options is to give them choice over how their lives are controlled by other lives.

Unfortunately, this is caused by the imbalance of power in their day to day lives. You can't even begin to approach one problem's solutions without dealing with the causes of the other problem. But most people only want to say that abortion is bad and evil and don't seem to want to deal with the societal issues that are the root cause of abortion.

Oddly enough, it isn't women in and of themselves that cause this abortion problem. It is the male dominated society that causes many problems to only be solvable by abortion. Until the problems in their lives are solved there is no rational hope of solving the "abortion issue." Anyone who argues otherwise is either part of the problem or just doesn't want to understand that the solution requires real change in how our cultures view the role of women.

I was discussing this with my wife today and I realised that I am not particularly Pro-Choice. But what I am is Pro-Option. And without the right to choose what they want to do, women don't actually have any real options with regard to how they can deal with the problems that society has foisted upon them. In my ethical framework, that is worse than the potential crime of abortion. This is especially true considering what violence is perpetrated on millions of already born innocents in the name of democracy, when it usually just come down to the desire to have cheap disposable goods and low cost fuel for our cars.
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  #208  
Old 29.05.2010, 23:16
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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As an aside, my wife used Planned Parenthood for over a decade and never for an abortion, only "family planning." Strange that.
I juggle with Heinz baked beans, but I'm pretty sure there's a more common use.
  #209  
Old 29.05.2010, 23:21
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Economisto, a while back you wrote something along the lines that you didn't like organisations like Marie S because you felt people who turned to them (or turned to abortions) should have all the information presented to them. What additional information do you think is missing?
I don't want private organisations giving the information in the first place. The NHS/a specialist government body is the only realiable way that information can be presented in an unbiased way. There are conflicts between Marie Stopes and government policy, major ones, which clearly speaks of an agenda and I think that much is obvious. They are a political entity, a lobbyist, and I don't want any special interest group to wield a scalpel at a young mother. I want many of the views and photos on this thread to be presented to those wanting an abortion. And if you think that the sometimes highly complex, erudite and elegant viewpoints are just common knowledge among all pregnant women, you're obviously mistaken.
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Old 29.05.2010, 23:45
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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I think most people pro-life and pro-choice don't realize how brutal abortions can be.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap4.html

Now if a baby (fetus if you call it that) is born alive during an abortion. Does it have the right to live then, or should they suffocate it, to complete the abortion?
It doesn't even become a fetus until about 8 weeks....
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Old 29.05.2010, 23:46
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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You brought up God, I haven't.
Was just covering all angles As lot of so called do gooders apparently get their instructions from "above"

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Abortion is what it is, no denying it , no matter what your view. As i asked in another post if a foetus is born alive during an abortion should the baby (it's outside the womb) still be killed.
Look I can only speak for my relationship. I am in a very committed and loving long term relationship and we both don't want to become parents so we take the necessary precautions. Now despite that if my wife gets pregnant then we won't be waiting around 4-5 months for the foetus to develop before deciding what to do. No sir we would be down at the clinic at the first sign because that is what we BOTH feel would be the correct thing in our case. I think we would make wonderful parents but we just don't want the associated baggage. Plain and simple.

Hmm! I did not answer your specific question did I? Ok so technically if the foetus can't survive on it's own outside the womb then it is not a fully developed viable human being. With current technology we do enter a grey area though. That said if a woman was a rape victim or stopped from getting an abortion by means of physical or emotional pressure then she should be allowed to terminate it no matter how late in the pregnancy.
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:10
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Was just covering all angles As lot of so called do gooders apparently get their instructions from "above"

Look I can only speak for my relationship. I am in a very committed and loving long term relationship and we both don't want to become parents so we take the necessary precautions. Now despite that if my wife gets pregnant then we won't be waiting around 4-5 months for the foetus to develop before deciding what to do. No sir we would be down at the clinic at the first sign because that is what we BOTH feel would be the correct thing in our case. I think we would make wonderful parents but we just don't want the associated baggage. Plain and simple.

Hmm! I did not answer your specific question did I? Ok so technically if the foetus can't survive on it's own outside the womb then it is not a fully developed viable human being. With current technology we do enter a grey area though. That said if a woman was a rape victim or stopped from getting an abortion by means of physical or emotional pressure then she should be allowed to terminate it no matter how late in the pregnancy.
So if a women has a premature baby, then what's the difference. It's a fetus up to the point before it's born. There have been premature babies (from a little bit older then 21 weeks)that have survived. What's your cutoff point if it's born alive. Before 21 weeks, then kill it? After 21 weeks then give it a chance? And when we were all born we are still developing. Your logic seems to go from it's a " bunch of dumb cells" then as soon as it hits the outside world it's magically a human.
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:13
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Your logic seems to go from it's a " bunch of dumb cells" then as soon as it hits the outside world it's magically a human.
In some cases, it remains a bunch of dumb cells for several more years...
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:15
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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They're also about widespread access to contraception.
Hang on Cyrus, a minute ago you said you'd never heard of Marie Stopes and now you're quoting from their website (I presume).
I'd like to see the stats of Marie Stopes revenue streams. Who'd go to someone other than their GP (that's a doctor) for contraception. It's a smokescreen. They may say that they offer other services but in reality they only really 'add value' in that you can speak to someone other than your MP anonymously.
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:15
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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It doesn't even become a fetus until about 8 weeks....
Ok it's a fetus at 8 weeks. But you didn't answer my question. But perhaps I should clarify. If it's a late-term abortion and the baby is born alive, should they still kill it?
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:19
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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In some cases, it remains a bunch of dumb cells for several more years...
Yes sadly this is the case for some , but they still need our help.
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:21
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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In some cases, it remains a bunch of dumb cells for several more years...
but DB, this thread is about all humanity, not just the Swiss.
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:25
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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So if a women has a premature baby, then what's the difference.
Sherlock in the case of premature baby the woman wants to have a baby and become a mum. In the case of abortion the woman does not want to have a baby. Quiet simple.

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It's a fetus up to the point before it's born. There have been premature babies (from a little bit older then 21 weeks)that have survived. What's your cutoff point if it's born alive. Before 21 weeks, then kill it? After 21 weeks then give it a chance? And when we were all born we are still developing. Your logic seems to go from it's a " bunch of dumb cells" then as soon as it hits the outside world it's magically a human.
So why are you not using the same logic to protect sperms? You have to draw a line somewhere which is why our age starts from the moments we come into this world.
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Old 30.05.2010, 00:36
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Sherlock in the case of premature baby the woman wants to have a baby and become a mum. In the case of abortion the woman does not want to have a baby. Quiet simple.

So why are you not using the same logic to protect sperms? You have to draw a line somewhere which is why our age starts from the moments we come into this world.
So if the fetus was born alive at the same age as a viable premature baby, is it not a premature baby at that point also?
So even then the mother still has a right to kill it?
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Old 30.05.2010, 01:05
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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So if the fetus was born alive at the same age as a viable premature baby, is it not a premature baby at that point also?
So even then the mother still has a right to kill it?
Why you asking me? Refer to the local law if such actions would get her in trouble or not. My view is simple......those who want kids should have them and those who don't should not have them. Do whatever is required within the law to meet your life needs. Btw laws change over time so philosophically speaking I don't think there are absolute right and wrongs in life.

Most pre-mature babies won't survive on their own so they are not viable human beings and lot of them actually develop life long health complications. So in short I think it is dumb for someone who does not want to have kids to leave the abortion so late but I don't know their circumstances so yes the mum should have the final say.

It would be more meaningful if people gave as much shyte about existing kids living in suffering compared to the amount of apparent shyte they give about foetuses.
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