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  #241  
Old 30.05.2010, 03:27
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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But do you ever wonder what would have not happened (or not) if your mother had got rid of you? Doesn't it make you think, "What if?".
My relatives on finding out that we never wanted to have kids said the same thing to me. They said we should go for 2 kids. They said imagine if my parents had thought similarly and not wanted to ever have kids etc etc.

So my friend if my parents had decided not to ever have any kids or in case of pregnancy aborted me then like all the aborted foetuses I would not give monkey's @ss cause non existent people don't think.

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It's almost too incomprehensible to contemplate that you were a bag of cells isn't it? Or don't you care?
Dude I think even adult humans are just bag of skin full of shyte and rotting flesh So in short I am mentally secure to not indulge in such meaningless non existent issues.
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  #242  
Old 30.05.2010, 03:31
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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So cut off date? As pain seems to be a driving force for some here (which I personally doubt as religion is the driver for lot of people who are against abortion)

Based on the above text from Wiki I say until 3-5 months should not even be up for debate if the mum wants to abort. From 5 months to 9 months should be allowed but the pain factor could be taken into account and the foetus could or maybe should be anaesthetised. Mum's medical safety should ALWAYS come first though.
Thanks for being brutally honest scribble. I mean that sincerely.
  #243  
Old 30.05.2010, 03:54
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Ok fair enough, so for a nine-month abortion that turned into a live birth, it should be left to die or treated like a normal live birth?

How many times does that happen? So you mean nine months have gone and Mrs slow decides to turn up for abortion and the thing pops out naturally? Hmm! tough one.........ok I would put the mum down as the child surely does not deserve such a bad start

Ok seriously though....

If no rape, forced pregnancy type of situation is involved and the lady is just an @ss
Then post 9 month I would say tough shyte and the mum would have to suck it up or give it up for adoption. I would revoke her license to get pregnant ever again.

If rape, forced pregnancy, being held against her will somewhere by family or rapist is involved-
Then I would put the child down if mum absolutely refuses to want the child to exist or be given up for adoption. I would never leave the thing (foetus/kid) to just die. Few injections would sort things out.

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  #244  
Old 30.05.2010, 06:46
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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How many discarded kids have you or RSS adopted in the real world?

Sperm is also a potential human beings so no more wanking or sex for you and RSS. Think about all the killing!
Ooh, Ooh! I have.
  #245  
Old 30.05.2010, 06:59
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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... As pain seems to be a driving force for some here (which I personally doubt as religion is the driver for lot of people who are against abortion)...
The religion thing is a strawman argument. I.e. anti-abortion is a religious idea, and therefore wrong. Many people dislike religion and have the attitude that anything that religious people are against, they must be for. Which is weird. Consider that the doctor murdered by terrorist anti-abortionists, Teller, was shot in the foyer of his church. It seems that not all religious people are anti-abortion! And conversely, not all atheists are prochoice.

Antiabortionists use salami tactics to progressively restrict the time limit for abortions. I think the "pain" argument is being used in this way. I believe the viability argument was (quite successfully) put forward for the same reasons, with the result that the main rationale behind abortion limits in most countries seems to be viability, and non-severe disability. The response of the prochoice lobby to the pain argument is "ok, we'll give the foetus anasthaetic before the abortion". Thought the problem some have with that is that is seems to give some recognition to the foetus as a living being.

The disability exception is interesting as another antiabortion tactic as it is directly related to prochoice argument. Effectively, the antiabortionists say "OK, we'll allow abortion in the case of rape, severe disability, if the mother is very young..." etc. - all the hard cases - but then seek to restrict it in all others.

The idea that until birth, the thing in the womb is only a potential person is a pro-choice one, not held by anti-abortionists, so is not a useful standpoint to argue with anti-abortionists. The idea is not held by all abortion proponents either.

As I understand it, there are three main "justifications" for the pro-choice stance.

1. Not a real person - a potential human until actually born or viable
2. The woman's body belongs to here therefore therefore she has a right to do with it what she likes.
3. Abortion is justifiable homicide - the foetus takes from the woman's body, and puts stuff into it, therefore any action taken against it is in self defence
4. Abortion is wrong, but illegal abortion is worse.

The main anti abortion idea is that human life begins at conception, and that the baby is entitled to all the legal protections offered to a new born baby - various justifications for this, including that there is no genetic difference between a fertilised egg and fully grown human, that "God" breathes his spirit into the baby at conception.

It's almost as if prolife/prochoice is a matter of (ahem) choice. It seems that it is one of those things were you either think it is right or it is wrong. The justifications come after the decision has been made. While there are evil people on both sides, I'm sure, there are also on both sides people who are decent, intelligent and caring. What it I think is wrong is the demonisation, ad hominem attacks and ridicule of people holding opposing views. That smacks of self-righteousness and arrogance, which is always ugly.
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  #246  
Old 30.05.2010, 11:43
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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The religion thing is a strawman argument. I.e. anti-abortion is a religious idea, and therefore wrong. Many people dislike religion and have the attitude that anything that religious people are against, they must be for. Which is weird. Consider that the doctor murdered by terrorist anti-abortionists, Teller, was shot in the foyer of his church. It seems that not all religious people are anti-abortion! And conversely, not all atheists are prochoice.
Not a strawman argument at all.

Who killed Dr Tiller? A religious fanatic, a representative of an organization (I refuse to name them here to give them more credence on the search engines), however, their stated description is they are a leading pro-life christian activist group. Of course, this group does try and put some distance between him and them - but that's more of a PR thing than anything else. Fact remains, the majority of anti-abortion activists in the US at least are christian, more so fundamentalist christians.

Some christians, killing a human being.

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...It's almost as if prolife/prochoice is a matter of (ahem) choice. It seems that it is one of those things were you either think it is right or it is wrong. The justifications come after the decision has been made. While there are evil people on both sides, I'm sure, there are also on both sides people who are decent, intelligent and caring. What it I think is wrong is the demonisation, ad hominem attacks and ridicule of people holding opposing views. That smacks of self-righteousness and arrogance, which is always ugly.
I agree, the demonization is wrong. My views are that other people should stay out of a woman's womb. The decision is agonizing enough as it is - if it is legal, then allow the woman to exercise her choice - whatever that may be - in peace.
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Old 30.05.2010, 11:51
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

Sure - I understand what you say - but you get my point that Teller was a Christian as well.
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  #248  
Old 30.05.2010, 16:33
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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silly silly. "say this like it's a bad thing" not I didn't.

"Pro-option not pro-choice", synonyms. Really seems like your entire post is made without reading/understanding the previous 11 pages of posts.
Hmm, I realize that you wouldn't want to understand.

They are sometimes synonymous but they are not the same. If you have one option, then you have no choice. Unfortunately at this time to have an actual or real choice there has to be more than one option. Having only the option to cary to term means that there is NO choice. Does that make sense?

In actual fact, I have "trawled" through all of the posts previous. If you have a problem with my logic, then try and explain it. But groaning because you don't understand the semantical difference between choice and option and my opinion and world view don't match yours seems a bit odd. I really thought you were better than that.
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  #249  
Old 31.05.2010, 10:55
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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I don't want private organisations giving the information in the first place. The NHS/a specialist government body is the only realiable way that information can be presented in an unbiased way. There are conflicts between Marie Stopes and government policy, major ones, which clearly speaks of an agenda and I think that much is obvious. They are a political entity, a lobbyist, and I don't want any special interest group to wield a scalpel at a young mother. I want many of the views and photos on this thread to be presented to those wanting an abortion. And if you think that the sometimes highly complex, erudite and elegant viewpoints are just common knowledge among all pregnant women, you're obviously mistaken.
Thanks for the reply Economisto.

I take your point that MS may have an "agenda" that is biased one way or another. But if you think that the NHS is impartial and independent, then you are smoking or taking something. It is a Government institution and subject, as such, to the vagaries of political beliefs and opinion. Whether Government policy is unbiased is just a matter of perspective. Within the NHS opinions differ on many topics, and as a simple example look at the Government’s behaviour over firing medical advisors who don’t give the advice the Government wants…

People are always criticising the Government one way or another. I would guess that you have your own agenda when in comes to financial aspects where you believe the Government is wrong. Why should this, in reality, be any different if all we are talking about is Government policy?

Do you think the pro-life group don't lobby in this respect?

To use your words: you’re obviously mistaken.

The abortion argument hinges on options for the pregnant woman. Excluding medical reasons for an abortion, there are a few simple options available:
1) keep pregnancy and baby
2) keep pregnancy and adopt
3) keep pregnancy and foster
4) get abortion

I don't really think it is as complex as you make out; ultimately it is about the real-life setting and how someone who is unexpectedly (and not wanted) pregnant has to deal with what lies ahead of them.

The rest of it is just a matter of opinion and personal belief. I do agree with you that you can have complex discussions about the ethics, morals and rights and wrongs of it all.

I also believe that you will more likely get a non-judgemental opinion about your choices from someone who is pro-choice. I’ve rarely come across anti-abortionists or pro-lifers who can really discuss the topic without becoming emotional and judgemental after the opening exchanges of views.
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  #250  
Old 25.02.2011, 23:55
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Was just covering all angles As lot of so called do gooders apparently get their instructions from "above"

Look I can only speak for my relationship. I am in a very committed and loving long term relationship and we both don't want to become parents so we take the necessary precautions. Now despite that if my wife gets pregnant then we won't be waiting around 4-5 months for the foetus to develop before deciding what to do. No sir we would be down at the clinic at the first sign because that is what we BOTH feel would be the correct thing in our case. I think we would make wonderful parents but we just don't want the associated baggage. Plain and simple.

Hmm! I did not answer your specific question did I? Ok so technically if the foetus can't survive on it's own outside the womb then it is not a fully developed viable human being. With current technology we do enter a grey area though. That said if a woman was a rape victim or stopped from getting an abortion by means of physical or emotional pressure then she should be allowed to terminate it no matter how late in the pregnancy.
Why then shouldn't we be able to kill babies that are born as well? They wouldn't be able to survive on its own. I doubt my 9 year old would survive a week without me. Does that mean he is not a viable human being? And to those who have chosen not to have children, what gives meaning to your life? A new car? A vacation to the beach? You are truely missing out on life's purpose.
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Old 25.02.2011, 23:56
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

Welcome to the forum, Mrs Brent.
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  #252  
Old 26.02.2011, 02:55
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Why then shouldn't we be able to kill babies that are born as well? They wouldn't be able to survive on its own. I doubt my 9 year old would survive a week without me. Does that mean he is not a viable human being? And to those who have chosen not to have children, what gives meaning to your life? A new car? A vacation to the beach? You are truely missing out on life's purpose.
@evilshell Why groan a valid contriburion, didn't you used to be be a mod? Please elaborate.
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Old 26.02.2011, 09:33
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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@evilshell Why groan a valid contriburion, didn't you used to be be a mod? Please elaborate.
You didn't explained to Carlos why you groan at him either...
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Old 26.02.2011, 11:09
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Why then shouldn't we be able to kill babies that are born as well? They wouldn't be able to survive on its own. I doubt my 9 year old would survive a week without me. Does that mean he is not a viable human being? And to those who have chosen not to have children, what gives meaning to your life? A new car? A vacation to the beach? You are truely missing out on life's purpose.
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@evilshell Why groan a valid contriburion, didn't you used to be be a mod? Please elaborate.

Valid contribution?

The question of viable vs non-viable (able to live on their own) refers to basic survival - can they breathe without help, heart beat without machines, require incubator, require intravenous feeding because they can not eat.

I suppose if "marybrent" were to proclaim that her 9 year old child requires a mechanical lung, a pacemaker, to live in a bubble and require intravenous feeding, it may indeed be a "valid" contribution. Otherwise, it is simply arguing for the sake of argument - particularly as prior to her contribution the thread had been dormant for nearly a year. (There's nothing like going looking for something to fight about, sheesh! )
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Old 26.02.2011, 12:30
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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@evilshell Why groan a valid contriburion, didn't you used to be be a mod? Please elaborate.
Just because I used to be a mod doesn't mean I don't have personal opinions. In fact, I'd have groaned that post even if I still was a mod. Mod does not equal robot without thoughts.
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  #256  
Old 26.02.2011, 18:09
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Just because I used to be a mod doesn't mean I don't have personal opinions. In fact, I'd have groaned that post even if I still was a mod. Mod does not equal robot without thoughts.
Her first post and she's been groaned at 5 times. Someone's given her negative rep.
I hardly think the emotive content of her post warrants that. And I'm still non the wiser as to why you groaned it.
Nice mobbing guys. And we wonder why some people are afraid to post or express their valid points and feelings.
I just tthink it's a bit sad that's all.
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Old 26.02.2011, 18:21
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Her first post and she's been groaned at 5 times. Someone's given her negative rep.
I do agree that sometimes this forum can be very unwelcoming to newbies, however, in this case I cannot understand why a total newbie would dredge up a long dormant thread on a very emotive and divisive topic for their one and only contribution to the forum. No comments on any recently active threads or anything to do with being an English speaking person in Switzerland for her first foray into EF; it's the type of behaviour one expects from trolls.
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Old 26.02.2011, 18:24
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

The reason for my groan: I never thought that my purpose in life was to breed.
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Old 26.02.2011, 18:28
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Why then shouldn't we be able to kill babies that are born as well? They wouldn't be able to survive on its own. I doubt my 9 year old would survive a week without me. Does that mean he is not a viable human being? And to those who have chosen not to have children, what gives meaning to your life? A new car? A vacation to the beach? You are truely missing out on life's purpose.
While I certainly don't agree with the idea put as a question here, it is put as a question. Sometimes a 'think tank' way-out-of-normal-limits idea can open up a whole area of thought. Who decides on dates for abortions? Who decides on when that date is reached? Doctors aren't always that sure when conception took place.

A bit off-topic but having had a lot to do with children with genetically caused diseases, I feel there are a lot of ethical points which are really difficult to make cut and dried. We didn't use medicines to help a failing heart. We didn't use oxygen for the children either. Not because we thought they were not 'worthy' of life, but because we didn't believe in making their lives longer (they were getting weaker all the time anyway) just for the sake of 'more time'. Were we right? I have no idea. These days they would probably never have been born. Would their parents have regretted it?
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Old 26.02.2011, 19:00
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

It's such a pity this thread's title was misleading from the start. This was made clear earlier on, that the advert is from a CHARITY not a BUSINESS- and does NOT advertise abortion at all- but a charity advice service (which may or may not provide access to abortion after advice and discussion of options, each case being treated individually). As a 6th Form teacher, I found that the advice given to girls and couples in this situation did look at all the options, and did NOT just dish out abortions as the only choice. Advice always encouraged girls/young women to involve partners and families in their decision.
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