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  #21  
Old 24.05.2010, 18:34
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Now I'm not so sure about the whole not-for-profit angle, especially after taking a look at the fees charged at this clinic:

http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/Fees/W.../Abortion.aspx

It seems like they might be making a little profit.

The rules about whether or not an abortion is covered by the NHS are confusing.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortio...roduction.aspx

In Toronto, Canada, abortion is totally funded for all residents no questions asked and the last time I checked it was around $300 for non-residents, accompanied by a profuse apology for having to charge at all...
You are obviously in favour of abortion - I don't necessarily agree with the "profuse apology for having to charge at all" bit. Marie Stopes is not-for-profit, not a guess at this, but the law. They have costs which need to be met so they charge. This doesn't mean they're making a profit (look at BP - they charge a load for petrol and make a loss). Broadly, the NHS does cover or fund abortions of pregnancy. However each individual Trust can make decisions as to what to do with their own funding and so many decide to administer stricter criteria to decrease numbers and therefore costs. In the UK a woman does not have an a priori right to terminate a pregnancy, but rather must meet certain criteria.
  #22  
Old 24.05.2010, 18:56
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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most women I know absolutely do not refer to their unborn, aborted or miscaried child as "their problems", when they think about it.
I think because there is still quite a stigma in the UK attached to abortion, many women would not even let on to friends and family that they were pregnant to their friends if they if they were considering a termination. Again keeping it all under the surface and making it more difficult to cope with, hence this advert being quite significant.
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Old 24.05.2010, 19:11
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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I think because there is still quite a stigma in the UK attached to abortion, many women would not even let on to friends and family that they were pregnant to their friends if they if they were considering a termination. Again keeping it all under the surface and making it more difficult to cope with, hence this advert being quite significant.
I don't blame those girls and women, to be secretly preggo, potentially facing disdain, fearing what will come, not knowing how to decide, fearing for future, hers, her potential kid, enormous guilt, worrying their partner might leave them, who will feed the kid, feeling like a failure as parents before they even become ones, future career, disappointing their folks, you name it...There is probably very few more difficult situations woman or girl can find herself in. Taboo, all over the world, not only in the UK.

If there is anyone, anything that can help a person in this hard moment, help her talk, or guide her through this, I am not gonna frown at a campaign that makes the issue more visible. At least people will open their eyes, they might become more sensitive to it, have more understanding and compassion.

If the company pushes termination, though, no matter what, insurrance cash, etc. that would be terrible.

There are wonderful teen parents out there, being young does not signify being a lousy parent, I only hope the campaign won't stigmatize those who decided to carry on.

I think, ideally, it should be a gov project, not some company. Don't know much about them, though, so can't say.
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Old 24.05.2010, 19:22
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

I'd like to give Music a hug for her caring sensitive post.

It must be such a terrible turning point in a woman's life, to make that kind of choice. What I do find horrendous is that the rest of the world feels entitled to have an opinion in regards to her body, her life, her future.

Tis a good thing that strong women like Simone Veil have raised their voice and paved the way so that today's woman can live in relative dignity and respect, regardless of the choice she makes.

Yes, I also think it should be proposed by UK gov support to help women in delicate situations. The private company fact does bother me
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Old 24.05.2010, 19:25
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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I'd like to give Music a hug for her caring sensitive post.

It must be such a terrible turning point in a woman's life, to make that kind of choice. What I do find horrendous is that the rest of the world feels entitled to have an opinion in regards to her body, her life, her future.

Tis a good thing that strong women like Simone Veil have raised their voice and paved the way so that today's woman can live in relative dignity and respect, regardless of the choice she makes.

Yes, I also think it should be proposed by UK gov support to help women in delicate situations. The private company fact does bother me
Sorry to cut through the fluff but what I think the "rest of the world" is thinking is that it isn't just her life, body and future, but rather the child she carries. Perhaps that the only difference between a foetus 1 day before birth and a baby 1 day after birth is one of location. This shouldn't have degraded into a discussion of abortion rights but you put your foot in the ring, so there it goes.
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Old 24.05.2010, 19:45
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

No fluff at all ! and the whole discussion is about the pros and cons of a commercial regarding a very sensitive subject and the subsequent painful choice for women as well as the stigma they must endure (and this regardless of the choice they make !!!!!) in society.

You'll notice I've said 2 x "regardless of the choice she makes" precisely not to color the discussion with my own opinion on the matter.
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Old 24.05.2010, 19:51
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Sorry to cut through the fluff but what I think the "rest of the world" is thinking is that it isn't just her life, body and future, but rather the child she carries. Perhaps that the only difference between a foetus 1 day before birth and a baby 1 day after birth is one of location. This shouldn't have degraded into a discussion of abortion rights but you put your foot in the ring, so there it goes.
Hmmmm....I am not sure I want to get into this. But, I really don't feel like ironing now. Ok, here it goes.

The way the discussion "degraded" perhaps, not to your liking? Different opinion? I wouldn't call that degradation. If people joined the band wagon, would that be a sophisticated upgrade?

Location? There is a big difference between being an incubator and having something outside of one's body...So, perhaps, the difference is not in location, but in the fact it is in one's power to stop a disaster with a minimal (still humongous if insensitively addressed - read "fluff", in your terminology) consequences..A woman feels the burden of responsibility and everything that comes with it, with the first zygot, trust me. It is so physical, she would have to be a complete air-head to go through the most difficult choice in life completely light headed and careless.

It is about the child's life. The parent being sure, the life of the child wouldn't be good quality. It is hard as it is, so I think to have an "objective" opinion as an outsider with some moral view and theories about ethics of society, is quite impossible. It is not so impossible to understand what is happening to the girl at that difficult moment, if one is sensitive enough (read "fluff" in your lingo").

It's always interesting to discuss these things with men. I do fear this will soon be a train wreck, though, so I think I am going to address the issue of unironed laundry now...
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Old 24.05.2010, 20:38
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

Marie Stopes International has been around a long time and provided abortion and contraception treatment for many years, when not many services were provided...

Just to point out, they have services offered through the NHS with no charge, as well as their 'private' services which you pay for.

http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/

They are a registered charity. They work in many countries. Their key agenda is to 'prevent unintended pregnancy and unwanted births'.

The current organisation was founded in 1976. Marie Stopes began the first 'family planning' clinic in 1921.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Stopes

You can appreciate that the social stigma attached to contraception and abortion has changed over the generations...
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Old 24.05.2010, 20:56
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Hmmmm....I am not sure I want to get into this.
No problem.
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But, I really don't feel like ironing now. Ok, here it goes.
Shocking. You got into it. Didn't see that coming.
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The way the discussion "degraded" perhaps, not to your liking? Different opinion? I wouldn't call that degradation. If people joined the band wagon, would that be a sophisticated upgrade?
I love different opinions and discussions (that's what most of my 1700-odd posts went towards), but I could see from the previous posts that everyone was trying to keep it on topic to the commercial advertising of abortion, or whatever the advert actually is (family planning or whatever) rather than onto more contentious topics of pro- or anti-abortion. When I saw this,
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What I do find horrendous is that the rest of the world feels entitled to have an opinion in regards to her body, her life, her future.
I knew the discussion had changed course. A poster has said that anti-abortion views are "horrendous".
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Location? There is a big difference between being an incubator and having something outside of one's body...
But still one of location I'm afraid. An organism is no less alive a minute before birth than a minute afterwards and if that's true then perhaps development of the foetus doesn't change it's ability to be termed "alive".
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So, perhaps, the difference is not in location, but in the fact it is in one's power to stop a disaster with a minimal (still humongous if insensitively addressed - read "fluff", in your terminology) consequences..
True, it does have power to avoid a whole load of problems. But if it's murder (if we say the foetus is alive, and we're killing it) then what does that matter. There aren't a lot of people arguing for new born babies of rape victims or heroin addicts to be flushed down the toilet.
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A woman feels the burden of responsibility and everything that comes with it, with the first zygot, trust me. It is so physical, she would have to be a complete air-head to go through the most difficult choice in life completely light headed and careless.
Nope, can't trust you on that. It isn't true. You felt it. Great. Not so the women I saw around me smoking and drinking while pregnant. The world is full of what you call "air-heads". Having said that I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion.
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It is about the child's life. The parent being sure, the life of the child wouldn't be good quality. It is hard as it is, so I think to have an "objective" opinion as an outsider with some moral view and theories about ethics of society, is quite impossible. It is not so impossible to understand what is happening to the girl at that difficult moment, if one is sensitive enough (read "fluff" in your lingo").
If the foetus is alive, then it's really not the parent's call. If you wanted to kill your 6 year old disabled child, it wouldn't be your business, nor would be assume you were the only one who could be objective. Rather we'd assume you were the only one unable to be objective. Society would step in to stop you from killing your child since in reality it's not your child but rather an independent being with an independent right to life.
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It's always interesting to discuss these things with men.
It's similarly interesting to discuss these things with women. They're normally unsurprisingly unobjective - of course they'd want extra rights and argue it's a privacy issue, where nothing could be further from the truth. In truth, it's a definitional issue - that is, whether a foetus is alive, or when it becomes alive.
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I do fear this will soon be a train wreck, though, so I think I am going to address the issue of unironed laundry now...
ahem, flounce.
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Old 24.05.2010, 20:58
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

I am not going to comment on anything else but the title of this thread - I think the title is blown way out of proportion. I have also seen the advert - not once does the advert mention the option of abortion. It just pointed the viewer to a helpline which, personally I think is great to have a number to call, especially if you are totally lost, scared and not knowing who to turn to - and be directed to different options available to you and access to various services out there.

I was always under the impression that MarieStopes is not just an abortion clinic. Trust those anti-abortion groups and holier-than-thou people to go all dramatic about this.
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Old 24.05.2010, 21:08
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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I knew the discussion had changed course. A poster has said that anti-abortion views are "horrendous".
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(....) What I do find horrendous is that the rest of the world feels entitled to have an opinion in regards to her body, her life, her future.
Not so, you're reading into something I did not say or even suggest.
I did not say that anti-abortion views are horrendous, I said I find that it is horrendous that the world should have the right to an opinion regarding a woman's choice and a woman's body and this regardless of the choice she makes.
It's nobody's business except hers
end of story

I fully agree with Music and feel her message as balanced and sensitive to the plight of many women stuck in a difficult situation, needing help.
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Old 24.05.2010, 21:15
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Not so, you're reading into something I did not say or even suggest.
I did not say that anti-abortion views are horrendous, I said I find that it is horrendous that the world should have the right to an opinion regarding a woman's choice and a woman's body and this regardless of the choice she makes.
It's nobody's business except hers
end of story

I fully agree with Music and feel her message as balanced and sensitive to the plight of many women stuck in a difficult situation, needing help.
Nope, again this isn't true. You didn't suggest something, you made it so that the implication was watertight. In effect you're saying that to have any view on the subject of abortion is wrong, because it's not your business (unless you're a pregnant mother and only considering the issue of your foetus, not the broader issue at all) unless of course you're pro-abortion rights, then it's OK because you aren't infringing the rights of the pregnant woman. So obviously you were saying that those who are anti-abortion (and voice it, rather than shut up and keep it to themselves) are committing a "horrendous" act.
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Old 24.05.2010, 21:35
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Nope, again this isn't true. You didn't suggest something, you made it so that the implication was watertight. In effect you're saying that to have any view on the subject of abortion is wrong, because it's not your business (unless you're a pregnant mother and only considering the issue of your foetus, not the broader issue at all) unless of course you're pro-abortion rights, then it's OK because you aren't infringing the rights of the pregnant woman. So obviously you were saying that those who are anti-abortion (and voice it, rather than shut up and keep it to themselves) are committing a "horrendous" act.
Wrong again. At this point you have no idea what my opinion is because I have not voiced it. I refrain from having one as precisely it's not my business to infringe on the life of another person.

Women should be entitled to bring children into this world when they want to. If, for reasons best known to them and their very private predicaments, they can or can not do so, then the world has no place judging them or telling them what they should feel or worse what they will become because of their choice.

Whether it be the teenage mother or the woman in a broken relationship, or a woman with a numerous family, or a poverty stricken, etc etc it's their choice.

It does remain a woman's problem.... obviously
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Old 24.05.2010, 21:57
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

I am such a sucker, I should be doing sumfin else than arguing with my "imaginery friends", haha...

I am glad enlightened governments consider these difficult situations the way they do. Legislature (at least in those countries I have become familiar with) lets the woman decide. I think the reason behind is, they prioritize the life that already exists over life that possibly may happen. You renaming the facts with ethics that suits your philosophy is not going to change the laws.

You seem to not have very high opinion of some preggo women. The fact one is an idiot and smokes through pregnancy has nothing to do over how easy/difficult/careless one's decision could be over terminating one's own child's life, no matter how many days/weeks old. Those things have not much in common, there have been too many pregnant moms who smoked, drank etc and had absolutely a-ok babies, so I guess that fact and being uneducated have something to do with that kind of risking. Besides, smoking through pregnancy is surely bad, but you might have just caught that nervewrecked mama with one single cig that one time...Who knows.

When did you think this loaded thread would not turn into discussion over the right of the women to chose? Of course both camps are going to have different opinions over advertising and obvious campaigning.

Thanks a lot, swisspea for the info on the organisation.
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Old 24.05.2010, 22:07
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Wrong again. At this point you have no idea what my opinion is because I have not voiced it. I refrain from having one as precisely it's not my business to infringe on the life of another person.

Women should be entitled to bring children into this world when they want to. If, for reasons best known to them and their very private predicaments, they can or can not do so, then the world has no place judging them or telling them what they should feel or worse what they will become because of their choice.

Whether it be the teenage mother or the woman in a broken relationship, or a woman with a numerous family, or a poverty stricken, etc etc it's their choice.

It does remain a woman's problem.... obviously
OK and that's your view. But that's your view. Many people around the world would disagree that it remains a woman's problem. Surely if a foetus is alive (and only if it's alive, and it may not be) it's not just a woman's problem. In the same way that a parent doesn't have the freedom to go to Austria and build a cellar/prison to abuse his daughter, if the foetus is alive, society must protect it. If a woman wants to stab her 12 year old daughter in the chest - it is very much my business. So it remains, you believe that a woman's foetus is private to her as is it's every fate. That's your view.

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they prioritize the life that already exists over life that possibly may happen.
Whatever the reason, it isn't this. Oftentimes the mother's life isn't at risk (unless you call a ruined career a "life at risk") and I think the "possibility" of a foetus becoming a baby is rather a distinct probability.

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You renaming the facts with ethics that suits your philosophy is not going to change the laws.
This isn't about the law, but about ethics. And I think you know that.

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You seem to not have very high opinion of some preggo women. The fact one is an idiot and smokes through pregnancy has nothing to do over how easy/difficult/careless one's decision could be over terminating one's own child's life, no matter how many days/weeks old. Those things have not much in common, there have been too many pregnant moms who smoked, drank etc and had absolutely a-ok babies, so I guess that fact and being uneducated have something to do with that kind of risking. Besides, smoking through pregnancy is surely bad, but you might have just caught that nervewrecked mama with one single cig that one time...Who knows.
My opinion of pregnant women is precisely the same as my opinion of anyone else I don't know. Variable. So let's make our views and laws independent of whether we trust pregnant women, just as our views and laws are largely independent of whether we trust 50 year old men (not to be pedophiles or whatever).
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Old 24.05.2010, 22:09
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Cigarettes are a legal business. They aren't allowed to advertise.
Chalk and cheese. Not a valid comparison.

Defecating in public, even if I bleached the pavement afterwards, is cleaner then smoking and less harmful to 3rd parties but probably isn't legal. Go figure...
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Old 24.05.2010, 22:16
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Chalk and cheese. Not a valid comparison.

Defecating in public, even if I bleached the pavement afterwards, is cleaner then smoking and less harmful to 3rd parties but probably isn't legal. Go figure...
Wasn't comparing the two, was refuting the absolute statement that all that is legal is or should be freely advertised.
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Old 24.05.2010, 22:22
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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You are obviously in favour of abortion - I don't necessarily agree with the "profuse apology for having to charge at all" bit. Marie Stopes is not-for-profit, not a guess at this, but the law. They have costs which need to be met so they charge. This doesn't mean they're making a profit (look at BP - they charge a load for petrol and make a loss). Broadly, the NHS does cover or fund abortions of pregnancy. However each individual Trust can make decisions as to what to do with their own funding and so many decide to administer stricter criteria to decrease numbers and therefore costs. In the UK a woman does not have an a priori right to terminate a pregnancy, but rather must meet certain criteria.

I am not in favour of abortion, because it's a very sad thing done as a last resort. Luckily I have never been in a position where my birth control failed. I am however in favour of choice, and sometimes that choice is abortion. It's a very personal thing, and yeah, I don't believe anyone has the right to decide for anyone else. I'm lucky to be from a place where politicians mostly refuse to let it become a political issue.

FYI, I was at the clinic with a friend who was not Canadian and therefore had to pay, and what I heard exactly was, 'I'm very sorry, but we have to charge you this money.' Maybe it was a Canadian thing (we apologise for everything) but I like to think, based on the other interactions we had there, that the clinic workers believed that cost should never be an obstacle to any medical procedure. I'm certainly not so insecure in my beliefs that I would make up such a thing!

Sorry, but I think this Stopes clinic may be taking advantage of what is obviously, in my worldview, an unfair situation for women in the UK. Certainly they are providing a more comfortable, private option for those who have the money. I just hope they can find a way to help those women and families who don't have the financial resources.
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Old 24.05.2010, 22:37
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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You can appreciate that the social stigma attached to contraception and abortion has changed over the generations...
Contraception moreso than abortion, in the UK at least. Looking up attitudes to abortion from the perspective of the major religons in the UK (they are still consulted by the media for such stories in Britain) I was surprised to see that the Anglican church is anti abortion. It's usually just the Catholic church that gets pillaried for taking a stance. Also interested to read that some Islamic guidance infers that life in the womb is deemed to begin at 4 months gestation.
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Old 24.05.2010, 22:46
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Contraception moreso than abortion, in the UK at least. Looking up attitudes to abortion from the perspective of the major religons in the UK (they are still consulted by the media for such stories in Britain) I was surprised to see that the Anglican church is anti abortion. It's usually just the Catholic church that gets pillaried for taking a stance. Also interested to read that some Islamic guidance infers that life in the womb is deemed to begin at 4 months gestation.
One can be opposed to abortion in principle, but support the rights of the most vulnerable women amongst us in practice.

While I think abortion is appalling, I would never have the audacity to judge some poor girl for having found herself in the situation where having her pregnancy terminated is simply the best thing to do.

I suspect that most Anglicans - and many members of the Roman church - hold similar opinions on the subject.
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