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  #81  
Old 25.05.2010, 17:53
economisto
 
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Economisto, if you really want to discuss ethics, then you should know that you could pretty much discuss any position from any angle and have an ethical argument to support it.

Simple example: all disabled children and unwanted foetuses should be killed as it for the greatest good of society (Utilitarianism). All they do is drain the economy. In the case of disability, think of the millions saved by not needing access ramps, 24 hr care, the fact that parents could carry on working. With foetuses, then think of the mother with an unwanted child, who could end up dysfunctional, while the mother contributes less to society.

A sick argument IMO, but it stands up to be ethically justified.

The one thing I learnt about ethics is that you can justify nearly any action, just like statistics can be used to prove nearly everything. Now, if you want to talk about morals...
Oh, no absolutely, we could arrive at any conclusion from an ethical debate. Although the utility of most ethical debates is that they define the scope of the argument, bring fallacies to light, and enable most people to come together on most things.
  #82  
Old 25.05.2010, 17:55
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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"If left unchecked" is debatable. There's nothing "if-left-unchecked"-able about the process that the baby and the mother are engaged in for 9 months. She is an inseparable variable in the equation. Whether the process goes to term is entirely in her hands for the majority of the development process. So, it's not murder in the sense that it isn't an unilateral decision taken by a third party over someone who could have lived had the murdered not introduced himself into the equation. It's not taking a life, it's choosing not to give it.

I don't know if I'm making sense, but I see a significant difference.
You are making sense - definitely two sides of a coin and I could see it both ways. However, now - the mother is stranded on a desert island, completely alone with her one week old baby. How is the situation different?
  #83  
Old 25.05.2010, 17:55
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Well, I think of course we mean broadly sentient
In that case, there are millions of animals who are greatly more sentient than a 24 week foetus killed every day ...

Of course I am being very un-scientific. How do you define 'sentient'? Cuz it matters here.
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Old 25.05.2010, 17:55
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Two views that will (probably) never be reconciled.
This is why tolerance must go both ways.
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Old 25.05.2010, 17:57
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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You are making sense - definitely two sides of a coin and I could see it both ways. However, now - the mother is stranded on a desert island, completely alone with her one week old baby. How is the situation different?
It's raised by apes and becomes Tarzan.
  #86  
Old 25.05.2010, 17:57
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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In that case, there are millions of animals who are greatly more sentient than a 24 week foetus killed every day ...

Of course I am being very un-scientific. How do you define 'sentient'? Cuz it matters here.
Well I'm unqualified to give a definition. Although it seems that human sentience is given ethical precidence over animal sentience so it's probably a combination of being human and being sentient since a severely mentally handicapped adult may have an IQ that's lower than a dolphin, although humanity has largely deemed the handicapped person to have an absolute right to life, where the dolphin does not.
  #87  
Old 25.05.2010, 17:58
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

The argument will go nowhere at present as we don't have the scientific know-how to make such definitions.

So what most people go for is that a woman has a right do decide over her own body, knowing very well she is the one who will suffer the most pain from the decision either way.
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Old 25.05.2010, 17:59
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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It's raised by apes and becomes Tarzan.
Um. Now give the real answer: it's the same thing. If the mother doesn't choose for the baby to continue to live, the baby won't live. The only difference to the baby over the last fortnight is one of location. And perhaps a better tan.
  #89  
Old 25.05.2010, 18:01
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Well, I think of course we mean broadly sentient
What does this actually mean?

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Of course there comes a point when the line will have to be drawn (the government's drawn it at 24 weeks). This to me says that the government believes foetuses after 24 weeks are in fact alive. This view is contrary to what many have posted here.
It is also contrary to what other governments have agreed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

Some ban it outright, others at 1st trimester, others at 2nd, some at both depending on the situation. Some have no bans. So who's right?

It's like speeding - in some countries driving at 120 is the limit, others 130, others no limit. So what is right and wrong in this situation?
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Old 25.05.2010, 18:02
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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The argument will go nowhere at present as we don't have the scientific know-how to make such definitions.

So what most people go for is that a woman has a right do decide over her own body, knowing very well she is the one who will suffer the most pain from the decision either way.
And there's the rub. Unless the ethical argument is brought out into the open, some women may see it all as a convenience, as something one step beyond the morning after pill. I just wonder, if the government's scientists are right and life/humanity/sentience begins at 25 weeks, then what if they're out by a week. All those 24 week murders. And I don't think we run our society by saying that the perpetrator is going to be sorry so let's just let them make whatever decision they feel is best.

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Old 25.05.2010, 18:04
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

Ahh... men debating women's rights.

6000yrs+ and at it's base, nothing has changed.
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  #92  
Old 25.05.2010, 18:04
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Um. Now give the real answer: it's the same thing. If the mother doesn't choose for the baby to continue to live, the baby won't live. The only difference to the baby over the last fortnight is one of location. And perhaps a better tan.
What I meant by my joke is that it's a far-fetched possibility, but is one nontheless. While for the large part of the development process, the baby's growth is completely (100%) dependent on the mother. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away, basically.
  #93  
Old 25.05.2010, 18:06
economisto
 
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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What does this actually mean?
I don't know. It's a biological and then philosophical question.



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It is also contrary to what other governments have agreed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

Some ban it outright, others at 1st trimester, others at 2nd, some at both depending on the situation. Some have no bans. So who's right?
No idea. But at the core, someone's going to be right. No way of finding out who of course, but there is a line there somewhere. And all the people who've had an abortion after that date. Well.

Also, fascinating about Chile on the map. Illegal with no exceptions.
  #94  
Old 25.05.2010, 18:07
economisto
 
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Ahh... men debating women's rights.

6000yrs+ and at it's base, nothing has changed.
Nope, not debating women's rights. Debating whether these are women's rights.
  #95  
Old 25.05.2010, 18:10
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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But at the core, someone's going to be right.
No, that is the point, no one is right or wrong. There may come a time when science can determine when the phase transtition from a bunch of cells to sentient being occurs. In that case, we could draw the line definitely if were are concerned with killing sentient beings that know no better. But until then, we must weigh all factors and most people put favour towards the woman deciding the fate of her own body and future life.
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Old 25.05.2010, 18:12
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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And there's the rub. Unless the ethical argument is brought out into the open, women will see it all as a convenience, as something one step beyond the morning after pill. I just wonder, if the government's scientists are right and life/humanity/sentience begins at 25 weeks, then what if they're out by a week. All those 24 week murders. And I don't think we run our society by saying that the perpetrator is going to be sorry so let's just let them make whatever decision they feel is best.
Okay....well excuse me, but kindly ponder on this one. So the baby/foetus has the right to live, it's a person?

It's only the Mother's responsibility when it's in the womb then, as long as she doesn't kill it?

Well what if she had the baby and didn't feed it? Left it in a park somewhere? Well, she's not technically a Murderer? What if the pregnant woman drinks vodka everyday? Still not doing anything wrong?

Fact is, the baby is totally dependent on the Mother. Therefore it is the property of the Mother, and only the Mother. It can't survive without the help of the Mother. If the Mother doesn't want that responsibility, she doesn't have to have it. It is a Mother's right to judge whether she wants that responsibility. The foetus is not a person! The Mother has the priority, her needs come before the needs of that foetus! Because she is an individual, an actual person. The foetus won't be missed by anyone, it hasn't even lived outside of a womb! It's ludicrous to suggest that there is any similarity in abortion and actual cold blooded murder.

Anyway, your opinion is irrelevant , whether you like it or not abortion is legal and it is the woman's right. No matter how you debate, you won't change the law. I happen to agree 100% with the law too!
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  #97  
Old 25.05.2010, 18:13
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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No, that is the point, no one is right or wrong. There may come a time when science can determine when the phase transtition from a bunch of cells to sentient being occurs. In that case, we could draw the line definitely if were are concerned with killing sentient beings that know no better. But until then, we must weigh all factors and most people put favour towards the woman deciding the fate of her own body and future life.
Or we build a wall around it. Say to ourselves that we're sailing awfully close to the wind on this one. That lack of precise knowledge doesn't mean we put our collective heads in the sand. It means we fervently search for the answer. Seems that very few participants in the debate are very interested in doing this.
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  #98  
Old 25.05.2010, 18:15
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

How dare you say this - do you realize your speaking for many, many women you have never met? I know a few women who have been in the unfortunate situation of having to make a very tough choice over an unexpected and in most cases unwanted pregancy, two of them because of instances of rape. None, and I mean none took the decision lightly. Abortion isn't perceived by any of the women I know (I happen to be a woman myself) as one easy step removed from the morning-after pill.

Econ, you're usually level-headed and I enjoy reading your posts, but there is something about a gaggle of men debating a woman's right to choice or not which makes me furious. Until science has the know-how Hash mentions, this will remain--rightly--a women's right to choose.

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And there's the rub. Unless the ethical argument is brought out into the open, women will see it all as a convenience, as something one step beyond the morning after pill.
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Old 25.05.2010, 18:16
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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Or we build a wall around it. Say to ourselves that we're sailing awfully close to the wind on this one. That lack of precise knowledge doesn't mean we put our collective heads in the sand. It means we fervently search for the answer. Seems that very few participants in the debate are very interested in doing this.

Because there probably is no answer. No magic point at which every fetus is viable - not the same identifiable point. It depends. We can't even define death to our satisfaction.....

I think you're asking for precise knowledge where it's a moving target.
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Old 25.05.2010, 18:17
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Re: First Ever Commercial For Abortion on British TV

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How dare you say this - do you realize your speaking for many, many women you have never met? I know a few women who have been in the unfortunate situation of having to make a very tough choice over an unexpected and in most cases unwanted pregancy, two of them because of instances of rape. None, and I mean none took the decision lightly. Abortion isn't perceived by any of the women I know (I happen to be a woman myself) as one easy step removed from the morning-after pill.

Econ, you're usually level-headed and I enjoy reading your posts, but there is something about a gaggle of men debating a woman's right to choice or not which makes me furious. Until science has the know-how Hash mentions, this will remain--rightly--a women's right to choose.
Well said!

Abortion is legal, murder is not. That's the reality. Abortion should be legal, too. It's definitely a woman's choice. I don't know why men would even debate on it like this...
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