Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 05.06.2010, 22:37
flavio's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 764
Groaned at 69 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 614 Times in 345 Posts
flavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputation
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

West superior?
Yes, but who knows in the long run.

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank flavio for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 07.06.2010, 01:35
scribble's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: 8xxx
Posts: 685
Groaned at 18 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 598 Times in 304 Posts
scribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
Similar merit??? Nobody said the merit had anything to do with it.

If all humans are born free an equal, humans inherent freedom is of same essence for all.
If freedom is of same essence for all, the use of human freedom by said humans is of same nature.
If the usage humans do of their inherent freedom is of same nature every where, there is no predictable view to be had on any given such behaviour.

Thus: Any given such behaviour being called culture, there is no predilection of a culture to be by nature of different value from another one. Hence there are no differences by nature, differences are contingent.

This is the idea. Not your own rewording. (Is there a philosophy teacher in the room?)
All humans are not born equal though are they? We would like to think so but reality is completely different.

Rest of your post I just did not understand
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank scribble for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 07.06.2010, 01:46
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
All humans are not born equal though are they? We would like to think so but reality is completely different.

Rest of your post I just did not understand
Ah, but they're all born with equal moral worth and therefore with the same innate rights, nes pas?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07.06.2010, 01:57
scribble's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: 8xxx
Posts: 685
Groaned at 18 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 598 Times in 304 Posts
scribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond reputescribble has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
Ah, but they're all born with equal moral worth and therefore with the same innate rights, nes pas?
Well in that case isn't the supposed "equal moral worth" more well protected in the west?

Anyway what is equal moral worth? Sounds like a nice IDEA
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07.06.2010, 02:17
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,428 Times in 10,577 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

I am not sure if I'd put the quality tag on our (or yours, actually) culture, nor the superior label. It's a matter of perception. Things that matter to your might not matter to your neighbor, in the same house, and you both are part of one culture. Say, some gov conspiracy freak would probably call you naieve. If respect of rights you mentioned and cushioned life matters to you, other people view that as "priviledged" (having more rights than other cultures) rather than superior (being higher quality). I think it all revolves around cash and independence in our cultures and lack there of in other cultures. Say a rough life of some opressed chinese man may have no quality to you but he in fact lives way more meaningfully in other aspects than we will ever think of..I appreciate your honesty, though.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10.06.2010, 21:00
flavio's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 764
Groaned at 69 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 614 Times in 345 Posts
flavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputation
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
It's a matter of perception.
I'm sure its a matter of perception. This guy is going to perceive those slashes quite vividly.

Man gets jail, 90 lashes for kiss in Saudi Arabia mall
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10.06.2010, 21:38
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
In any case, yes, the Western value system is the best, culturally and scientifically we're the most (only?) developed "civilisation" and the way we know all this is that no one else seems too sure of themselves.
Oh, I think China and India seem fairly sure of themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10.06.2010, 21:47
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: zurich
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 2 Posts
Araviind has no particular reputation at present
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Well the OP is so brilliantly constructed that any antithesis to that would sound like fundamentalism....

culture is not just a product of religion and current existential realities. Culture is an amalgamation of historical relevance, societal values, religion, beliefs and other subtle aspects of life.

Having born in India and travelled quite extensively to other parts of the world, Western culture appears to be appealing. a deeper analysis is required.

all religions in the world except HINDUISM and its offshoots like Buddhism have been built on violent foundations. Christianity a few centuries back was more tyranical and single minded than any relighion known. The plundering of oriental nations by the current richly developed western world have laid strong foundation for wealth. civilisations thrive on surplus. Hence the currrent way of living is a product of harsh cruelties and not so commendable cultural strength.

It is often quite easy to equate econmic status and richness to cultural superiority. A chinese factory worker, an indian farmer or an arabic merchant is in no way culturally inferior or superior to a common westerner.

culture is defined by what people believe in, what values and what articles of faith would people uphold in all trying circumstances....

Religion plays a vital role in such matters. Some religions promote more groupism than others. Mass numbers give an idea more strength than mere intellectual validity. so why compare religious freedom as a element of cultural superiority?? Ignorance of oriental philosophical systems is often the root cause of such browbeating... Oriental religions and philosophies have always had agnostic, atheistic and faith based streams in it. so having no opinion on religion or being against God or no force on religious practices is in no way a pure western idealogy or reality.

all said and done... Western way of living is simple and beautiful. Each person is on his own. practice and preach what ever you want....
Oriental systems are not that accomodative... because it is considered that such explorations and experiments have long been done, carefully studied and the ultimate essence is now practiced as religion and culture..
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Araviind for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 10.06.2010, 22:35
Traubert's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,121
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 2,233 Times in 789 Posts
Traubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

As westerners we have lost our way. We are, in the monkey cage, one of the weakest animals. What exactly is our culture? Is it family oriented? Is it one based on truth and love?

Our culture is an ever-increasing lie. We worship ourselves, shopping malls, consumerism, TV and celebrities. We plunder and ass-rape the earth for her resources so that we can continue to separate ourselves from where we come from. We are slaves to ourselves and the system we have built. We have created a divide between ourselves and nature, we have created religious and political systems for the purposes of control. We lie, cheat, steal and kill one another. We do nothing but paradoxically continue to feed the machine that we built that keeps us enslaved. We have illusions of freedom, illusory Soma in all form; TV for the nations. I despair.

Our culture is based on very little truth with very little integrity. It is without substance, spirituality, love, gratitude and honest intent. It celebrates the individual at the expense of the group yet maintains that is group based, a society of individuals most of whom couldn't care less about the other.

You know when you see a little dog, like the one Paris Hilton keeps in her handbag, it has a look on its face that says 'please, please tell me what I am, please tell me what I am doing here'. Our culture has the same look on its face. This is what we have done to our monkey cage, what kind of culture we have fostered?

Our culture could not be more out of touch with the rest of humanity and nature. We are blind, lost and confused.

Forward the archaic revival.
__________________
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Traubert for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 11.06.2010, 00:07
flavio's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 764
Groaned at 69 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 614 Times in 345 Posts
flavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputation
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
We are blind, lost and confused.
Sorry but your post is full of BS.

Today's broad western civilization is better informed, freer and more enlightened than it has ever been or than any other human civilization has ever been now or before.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11.06.2010, 00:15
Traubert's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,121
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 2,233 Times in 789 Posts
Traubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
Today's broad western civilization is better informed, freer and more enlightened than it has ever been or than any other human civilization has ever been now or before.
Such hubris.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11.06.2010, 00:24
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,428 Times in 10,577 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
Sorry but your post is full of BS.

Today's broad western civilization is better informed, freer and more enlightened than it has ever been or than any other human civilization has ever been now or before.
Hmmm...In some selective aspects, in others people don't want to be.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11.06.2010, 00:30
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
As westerners we have lost our way. We are, in the monkey cage, one of the weakest animals. What exactly is our culture? Is it family oriented? Is it one based on truth and love?

Our culture is an ever-increasing lie. We worship ourselves, shopping malls, consumerism, TV and celebrities. We plunder and ass-rape the earth for her resources so that we can continue to separate ourselves from where we come from. We are slaves to ourselves and the system we have built. We have created a divide between ourselves and nature, we have created religious and political systems for the purposes of control. We lie, cheat, steal and kill one another. We do nothing but paradoxically continue to feed the machine that we built that keeps us enslaved. We have illusions of freedom, illusory Soma in all form; TV for the nations. I despair.

Our culture is based on very little truth with very little integrity. It is without substance, spirituality, love, gratitude and honest intent. It celebrates the individual at the expense of the group yet maintains that is group based, a society of individuals most of whom couldn't care less about the other.

You know when you see a little dog, like the one Paris Hilton keeps in her handbag, it has a look on its face that says 'please, please tell me what I am, please tell me what I am doing here'. Our culture has the same look on its face. This is what we have done to our monkey cage, what kind of culture we have fostered?

Our culture could not be more out of touch with the rest of humanity and nature. We are blind, lost and confused.

Forward the archaic revival.
Everything you say is true, and I'm loving it. I love the celebration of the individual over the group, that while we mainly exist in groups, it's each one of us that truly matters, rather than scarificing our individuality and independence for an illusory superstructure a la Soviet Union. I like the fact that our culture doesn't have a singular identity (like "family oriented" or whatever), but that it's subtle and nuanced enough to enable some truly core values like liberty to be as pervasive as possible throughout the world. Raw capitalism, TV worship, confusion. This is what much of humanity truly is, and this is as honest as it gets. Those who truly wish to rise above these things and find what they consider to be greater meaning are allowed to in our culture.

In short I'd rather have a television with a thousand channels that I have the freedom to switch off, than an empty room.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11.06.2010, 00:50
Traubert's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,121
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 2,233 Times in 789 Posts
Traubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
Everything you say is true, and I'm loving it. I love the celebration of the individual over the group, that while we mainly exist in groups, it's each one of us that truly matters, rather than scarificing our individuality and independence for an illusory superstructure a la Soviet Union. I like the fact that our culture doesn't have a singular identity (like "family oriented" or whatever), but that it's subtle and nuanced enough to enable some truly core values like liberty to be as pervasive as possible throughout the world. Raw capitalism, TV worship, confusion. This is what much of humanity truly is, and this is as honest as it gets. Those who truly wish to rise above these things and find what they consider to be greater meaning are allowed to in our culture.

In short I'd rather have a television with a thousand channels that I have the freedom to switch off, than an empty room.
I am not implying that we sacrifice the individual for a communist society. I advocate individuality, but not to the extent that we consider ourselves above all, not to the extent that we forget to commune with and care for others and nature. We are a part of a whole. As for liberty, I don't think we are as free as you seem to think we are. We are legislated and controlled, thrown peanuts from time to time to make us happy.

Raw capitalism, TV worship, confusion might be what much of humanity truly is, I don't think it's what makes humanity true or what we should truly be. Every state of being is as honest as it is in that state. Is this the best intent we can have?

I ask you this. Is there any room for change? Is there anything we need to do to improve our state or do you think it's right just the way it is?
__________________
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11.06.2010, 00:57
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
I am not implying that we sacrifice the individual for a communist society. I advocate individuality, but not to the extent that we consider ourselves above all, not to the extent that we forget to commune with and care for others and nature. We are a part of a whole.

Raw capitalism, TV worship, confusion might be what much of humanity truly is, I don't think it's what makes humanity true or what we should truly be. Every state of being is as honest as it is in that state. Is this the best intent we can have?

I ask you this. Is there any room for change? Is there anything we need to do to improve our state or do you think it's right just the way it is?

Well things can change. But there is no right or wrong or improve or worsen here. The reality is that as long as we live in a culture that makes the individual the most important entity in the system, the system will always be true to the individual, that is, true to who we all really are. We may be part of a whole, but "modern western culture" enables us to choose to what extent we "commune" with it. Do I like watching Big Brother (the TV show)? No, I believe it represents the very worst of us, and never watch it. But it gives me a warm sense of comfort that we live in an open society without a clear and readable motive or label that allows those of us who want to, to participate in a show like Big Brother. That we know who they are and that we're able to draw upon our individuality and separation from the whole to go to a library or a walk in a forest, thus choosing our own society even where it's population is 1. The individual and it's freedom is always and everywhere the most (only?) important construct. Freedom and individualism can be loaned out for inclusion to the whole/society/nature, but within a society that removes freedom and indivualism, the individual can never win it back.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11.06.2010, 01:10
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 449
Groaned at 222 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 1,002 Posts
Pashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisance
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Hang on - Whats western culture ?

Do Mormoms count ? and Baha'i ? Scientology ?

I think we need to define what we are talking about.

My own opinion:
1. Human rights - of the individual. No Tyranny of the majority.
2. Democracy.
3. Advancing Science & Technology - rather than simply using them.
4. private property - ranging between raw capitalism to socialism (mutual help)

If any of the above is lacking, it's not western.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11.06.2010, 01:26
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
I am not implying that we sacrifice the individual for a communist society. I advocate individuality, but not to the extent that we consider ourselves above all, not to the extent that we forget to commune with and care for others and nature. We are a part of a whole. As for liberty, I don't think we are as free as you seem to think we are. We are legislated and controlled, thrown peanuts from time to time to make us happy.

Raw capitalism, TV worship, confusion might be what much of humanity truly is, I don't think it's what makes humanity true or what we should truly be. Every state of being is as honest as it is in that state. Is this the best intent we can have?

I ask you this. Is there any room for change? Is there anything we need to do to improve our state or do you think it's right just the way it is?
Well, that's very much up to you to change to whatever lifestyle you prefer, isn't it ? You don't need a forced mass to join you, do you ?
I can go to Osho Ashram and find my spiritual fulfillment there.

But one aspect I feel has not been mentioned yet. I feel most of us here are talking like the Chinese before it was subordinated by the West. The center of the world, enjoying unprecedented wealth, information, technology, but ultimately very much with the feeling "that is all that is to be achieved".
We aren't progressing that much anymore, altough 2-3% economic growth is respectable at that level I admit. But I am not sure if in 30-50 years we'll still see the world as we see it today. Others have ambitions too, the Chinese, the Indians learn every day, they know what they don't know, a huge advantage over us, the West. And ultimately, with wealth, education, civility and progress come democratic rights, at least it's observable in both China and India, despite all the criticism. I don't think that Europe had "superiour values" a priori, but could only develop them because of a large, educated population enjoying wealth and stability. And even though we can still look with contempt at the savages elsewhere, because we're oh so superiour, the gap is narrowing every year, and we have become complacent, others have not.

edit: And as a personal note, as someone who likes to shape the future, not just enjoy the present, there is no worse place to live than Switzerland, or Europe, as most feel we have pretty much achieved whatever is to be achieved. That's why I'm heading to China, because they are great people with an incredible potential, and whatever arrogance you might have today will backfire on you tomorrow, because they are doing their best to become better than you in no time.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 11.06.2010, 17:10
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,428 Times in 10,577 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Good post.

Quote:
View Post
..I can go to Osho Ashram and find my spiritual fulfillment there.
Ah, don't bother. I'm so not sure if my experience there was about a spiritual fulfilment since most of the Osho folks were insterestingly enough interested in things a lot more...erm, physical.

Quote:
..We aren't progressing that much anymore, altough 2-3% economic growth..
Yo, I have a feeling that the economic growth or the relevance of it will most probably be re-evaluated in near future.

I want to go to China, too. Maybe one day. We all could use a little bit of humility.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 11.06.2010, 17:44
flavio's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 764
Groaned at 69 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 614 Times in 345 Posts
flavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputation
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Quote:
View Post
I can go to Osho Ashram and find my spiritual fulfillment there.
You mean Western fulfillment with oriental flavour?
That place is designed and marketed as a spiritual product tailored and managed as per Western taste. You can call it the Aspartame of mysticism.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank flavio for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 11.06.2010, 18:25
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever?

Haha, I am fully aware that Osho Ashram isn't the place to be for real meditation or learning. It was just a slightly ironic comment re this sentence of Traubert:

Quote:
Raw capitalism, TV worship, confusion might be what much of humanity truly is, I don't think it's what makes humanity true or what we should truly be. Every state of being is as honest as it is in that state. Is this the best intent we can have?
What I wanted to say is that it's up to everyone to find his spiritual fulfillment and/or inner peace, and it's certainly not easier in China than here to attempt to do so. Even if your neighbour doesn't share your vision, who stops you to go ahead and find your peace? All I want from a society is to have the freedom to do whatever I see fit without bothering others, I don't need a herd to follow for spiritual guidance.

Besides, since I enjoyed visiting India that much I'll still have to go to a) a real Ashram and b) Osho Ashram once in my life just to know what I'm talking about.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
culture chris_c Introductions 0 13.04.2008 13:13
About culture and cultures? boccalino Forum support 7 19.03.2008 11:43
The Wasting Culture Salsa_Lover Daily life 15 12.11.2007 22:17
Culture Vultures Polorise Social events 2 28.05.2007 14:54


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0