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-   -   Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder] (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/89258-yet-again-met-get-away-manslaughter-murder.html)

Upthehatters2008 22.07.2010 18:35

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
The Police may not interfere with a citizen going about his lawful business.

22.07.2010 18:36

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyLaRock! (Post 884498)
You, friend, are an idiot, if you believe the words you so vehemently utter. But because you are quite obviously a foreigner unused to British politics I give you the benefit of the doubt and advise you to listen to your more moderate, (and British) peers.

We invented the Police, and we ultimately control their actions and pay their wages, that is why they must call us ‘sir’, it may not be the case in the rest of Europe or America, but it is the case in Britain. We have no curfew or police controlled state, a police man can only issue orders to a member of the public if he has good reason to believe he is involved in or abetting criminal actions, the same goes for arrest and stopping and searching.
The protesters where ‘kettled’ pregnant women and people going to and from work where illegally detained in the street for up to 12 hours, nobody in the ‘kettle’ could leave, which is an abuse of police power in itself.

Hot tip – get the facts, and learn basic spelling / grammatical syntax

Please stop insulting people you disagree with. His spelling has nothing to do with the veracity of his argument.

Anthony1406 22.07.2010 18:41

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 884504)
Why on earth should police be given any more respect than anyone else? Walking in front of a line rather than behind it does not mean you forfeit your life. What's it like to see the world in such simplistic terms? I hope you never accidentally walk left when the sign says right. The world will surely end.


Cause the police are the ones that will clear up the murder, the mess, the riot, the whatever. Because they need to put themselves in situations every day where I would rather not be in, nor would you I assume. Thats why I give them respect and I wish more people would as I for one do not like to walk alone in big cities (speaking from experience). As a citizen of a country it is your duty to obey the law and the police is the voice and face of the law, therefore giving them more authority.

Upthehatters2008 22.07.2010 18:42

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony1406 (Post 884512)
the police is the voice and face of the law, therefore giving them more authority.

I think Parliament and the Courts would disagree.

Also,doing a fine job job does not excuse them from when things go badly wrong.

Guest 22.07.2010 18:43

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony1406 (Post 884503)
Well you are as dumb as you look from your pic.....I hope one day you will need to police and they will not be there.

As far as the spelling goes...can you read, write and speak 3 languages and intermediately speak 2 other? When you do then feel free to comment.


BACK ON TOPIC

Ad hominem rebuttals will not be tolerated

22.07.2010 18:45

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony1406 (Post 884512)
Cause the police are the ones that will clear up the murder, the mess, the riot, the whatever. Because they need to put themselves in situations every day where I would rather not be in, nor would you I assume. Thats why I give them respect and I wish more people would as I for one do not like to walk alone in big cities (speaking from experience). As a citizen of a country it is your duty to obey the law and the police is the voice and face of the law, therefore giving them more authority.

Yes, but there is a line to be drawn. The police may have the responsibility of upholding and enforcing the law but they are not the law - we are. The police do not have greater civil or human rights than anyone else, and they are not allowed to interfere with people going about their rightful business. They chose their jobs as do we all - I respect police as much as I respect firemen - both dangerous jobs that save people's lives. However I would not tolerate being manhandled by a fireman, so why would a policeman get away with it?

22.07.2010 18:45

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyLaRock! (Post 884514)
Ad hominem rebuttals will not be tolerated

But that's YOU. (you called him an idiot)

Anthony1406 22.07.2010 18:46

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyLaRock! (Post 884514)
Ad hominem rebuttals will not be tolerated


Get back to the discussion and stop being a baby.

Dont give what you cant take!

And quit groaning at people in every post.

Ouchboy 22.07.2010 18:46

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony1406 (Post 884512)
Cause the police are the ones that will clear up the murder, the mess, the riot, the whatever. Because they need to put themselves in situations every day where I would rather not be in, nor would you I assume. Thats why I give them respect and I wish more people would as I for one do not like to walk alone in big cities (speaking from experience). As a citizen of a country it is your duty to obey the law and the police is the voice and face of the law, therefore giving them more authority.

I'm sorry sir, but at the end they are public servants, and as such they are ones who have the biggest burden to uphold the law and serve and protect the citizens which they represent/ lay watch on.

The guy is clearly not a threat, he might be noncomplaint, but he is non confrontational or threatening in any physical way.There is no grounds on that video for such a violent push without the, I would say typical, restrain of the individual and search for concealed weapons (if he was a threat).

Anthony1406 22.07.2010 18:48

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 884516)
Yes, but there is a line to be drawn. The police may have the responsibility of upholding and enforcing the law but they are not the law - we are. The police do not have greater civil or human rights than anyone else, and they are not allowed to interfere with people going about their rightful business. They chose their jobs as do we all - I respect police as much as I respect firemen - both dangerous jobs that save people's lives. However I would not tolerate being manhandled by a fireman, so why would a policeman get away with it?


And unless we know what he said previous to the police I think we will not come out of this discussion. Good one though with a few bumps along the way!

Guest 22.07.2010 18:49

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 884517)
But that's YOU. (you called him an idiot)

I didn't actually, I said he would be an idiot if he believed the words he said, if you read my post clearly, plus, you misunderstand ad hominem.

Anthony1406 22.07.2010 18:50

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyLaRock! (Post 884526)
I didn't actually, I said he would be an idiot if he believed the words he said, if you read my post clearly, plus, you misunderstand ad hominem.


Did He: An ad hominem argument, or argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the man [or person]"), is a fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by attempting to discredit the person offering the argument or assertion. Ad hominem rebuttals are one of the best-known of propagandist tactics.


I agree I threw one back right at you.
And of course I believe what I write, why else would I bring it into discussion?

Upthehatters2008 22.07.2010 18:52

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony1406 (Post 884531)
Did He: An ad hominem argument, or argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the man [or person]"), is a fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by attempting to discredit the person offering the argument or assertion. Ad hominem rebuttals are one of the best-known of propagandist tactics.


I agree I threw one back right at you.
And of course I believe what I write, why else would I bring it into discussion?

To all hominems , this is going officus topicus, please re-enter the original debate.

22.07.2010 18:53

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyLaRock! (Post 884526)
I didn't actually, I said he would be an idiot if he believed the words he said, if you read my post clearly, plus, you misunderstand ad hominem.

Ad hominem by threat.

And you seem far too full of yourself. You're almost certainly a graduate student. And boring.

Guest 22.07.2010 18:57

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony1406 (Post 884531)
Did He: An ad hominem argument, or argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the man [or person]"), is a fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by attempting to discredit the person offering the argument or assertion. Ad hominem rebuttals are one of the best-known of propagandist tactics.


I agree I threw one back right at you.
And of course I believe what I write, why else would I bring it into discussion?

I didn't call you an idiot, read my post again, plus any way you said I looked like an idiot, that is a baseless assumption, I made an accurate assumption based on your idiotic posts, and then didn't apply my assumption because I would rather give you the benefit of the doubt. Your rebuttal was ad hominem, mine wasn't, but wasn't applied, so you can't even call it an insult...understand?

Anthony1406 22.07.2010 18:59

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyLaRock! (Post 884538)
I didn't call you an idiot, read my post again, plus any way you said I looked like an idiot, that is a baseless assumption, I made an accurate assumption based on your idiotic posts, and then didn't apply my assumption because I would rather give you the benefit of the doubt. Your rebuttal was ad hominem, mine wasn't, but wasn't applied, so you can't even call it an insult...understands?


Lets get over it and back OT (its the internet, words are lost without interaction...and lets leave it at that)

NotAllThere 22.07.2010 19:12

Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyLaRock! (Post 884514)
Ad hominem rebuttals will not be tolerated

Hah! Who died and made you mod?

Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 884439)
OK, "murder" is a bit strong, but certainly the cop should be fired, if not even serve some time behind bars. He didn't intend to do the guy harm, but if I push someone and he falls and dies, I go to jail. So should the cop.

If you push someone over, and they die, you'll only be prosecuted if there is sufficient evidence to indicate that the one caused the other. You'll only do time, if it is proven that the push caused the death. If it can't be proven, then you can only be prosecuted for assault.

It would be incredibly difficult to prosecute a cop for assault, given that legally, they are allowed to use force to get you to do what they want.

Slaphead 22.07.2010 19:29

Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]
 
I've got half a mind to close this thread already, but the other half is saying this could be a worthwhile discussion. That is a discussion, not an argument, nor a mud slinging session.

Let's keep it civil guys.

Papa Goose 22.07.2010 19:38

Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 884500)
As I corrected myself earlier on, Murder was a play on words. Clearly , as a man died as a result of unwarranted Police action, the lesser crime of Manslaughter is easier and safer to apply.

The police are subject to the same laws and rules as us, i.e. we all have to act within the law. Have a good look at that area and time in the video, people are smiling , laughing and bantering. The police were standing by looking calm and having no need to act. Note the lack of riot shields and riot Police. There were no riots there.

I know, just speaking my mind;)

They should be accountable absolutely, BUT, the management of the law with regard to police I believe should be handled differently for the boys in blue.... and that doesn't mean ignored or covered up.

Clarejane 22.07.2010 20:04

Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]
 
Years ago the police were respected and parents were quite willing to allow the local bobby to giv a clip round the ear to any local youngster that was misbehaving. Oh how times change!

Viewing this footage for myself and having just seen the news this evening, I have to say I think this PC overstepped the mark. It wasn't murder as some of you have already said. This gentleman was coming home, walking with his back to the police line and this policeman actually comes forward to shove him. Not a protrayal of the police I would like my son to see as don't we always tell our kids, 'if you need help, go to the policeman'?

This could also be an unfortunate incident with regards the policeman being pumped up because of the situation and being overzealous in his judgement with this particular guy. Regardless this man has to life with the fact that his actions may well have contributed to someone losing their life. They could not prosecute as the so called medical experts could not agree the cause of death. This policeman who has been named is going to carry this around with him for the rest of his life. I just hope that on reflection he is big enough to learn from what happened or leave the Police Force, if he isn't forced out.

Like everyone else the police are paid to do a job, they have strict guidelines and if these are not adhered to then steps should be take to make sure they do. Violence from a police officer in any capacity should not be tolerated. It is irrelevant what name you want to give its just not acceptable.


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