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  #41  
Old 22.07.2010, 20:04
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

Seems a bit naive to me to consider this man who unfortunately died as an innocent victim.

Remember that this took place during a G-20 demonstration in London with 35,000 demonstrators.

Assuming that he was of average or above intelligence, he chose to walk slowly, hands in pockets almost in a “whistle while you walk down a quiet lane” posture. The nonsense of it is that he was walking in between two moving walls of people; one wall of riot police in bright yellow vests telling people to clear the street with barking dogs; second, a wall of photographers ready to capture the anticipated confrontation. He was more gently pushed to the side once, and then chose to walk back towards the center of the police again.

He was either provocative or stumbling blind drunk. Maybe a few too many pints caused the damaged liver and hemorrhaging stomach for which the autopsy indicated that he died. A shove in the back does not result in deadly organ failure. That takes years of unhealthy living. Although the shove was harder than perhaps necessary, there was no reason to think that it would have caused the death of an otherwise healthy adult. Simply moving out of the way when asked and protesting in the designated area would have prevented the entire incident.

I’m sorry for his family’s loss. I also expect the police to keep demonstrators from damaging things and/or hurting visiting diplomats.
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  #42  
Old 22.07.2010, 21:30
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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Assuming that he was of average or above intelligence, he chose to walk slowly, hands in pockets almost in a “whistle while you walk down a quiet lane” posture.
Since when is that a crime or even suspicious ?

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He was either provocative or stumbling blind drunk. Maybe a few too many pints caused the damaged liver and hemorrhaging stomach for which the autopsy indicated that he died.
He was neither.
The autopsy was inconclusive.

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A shove in the back does not result in deadly organ failure. That takes years of unhealthy living. Although the shove was harder than perhaps necessary, there was no reason to think that it would have caused the death of an otherwise healthy adult.
You draw far too many conclusions about how he died and what killed him.
Do you really think for one minute he would have died of the same on the way home without the assault by the Police ?


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Simply moving out of the way when asked and protesting in the designated area would have prevented the entire incident.
He was an innocent man going about lawful business, doing the same thing he did every day in that spot, walking home. He was not drunk. He was walking away from the Police , posing no threat whatsoever, not breaching any peace. He was clearly separate to the protesters that the Police had been watching all along. I submit that the Policeman lost it due to pressure at not being able to be the aggressor in a situation that they clearly enjoy being aggressive in. The Met are infamous for over excessive aggression towards protesters. This Policemen overstepped the mark and a man died directly from the policeman's actions.

If we continue to let things like this pass without intervention and subjecting the guilty to British Justice then we are sending out the wrong signals. Signals that Policemen like this will interpret as a free reign to commit these acts again without recourse. Signals that other Policemen will pick up on. This incident begs for an example to be made.
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  #43  
Old 22.07.2010, 21:50
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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but he pushed the guy to move him along, from which the poor guy died. So tragic, but not murder.
The cop drove his baton into the leg of the victim - this is a martial arts technique specifically designed to bring an opponent to the floor; I know because a Police DCS (who also teaches combat technique at police colleges) taught the technique at an Aikido summer school I attended many moons ago.

The fact that the guy died is bad enough; however it seems very convenient that the DPP waited until after the time limit when an assault charge could be brought to announce their decision; plus all the attempted and frankly clumsy cover ups just serve to exacerbate the situation.

Also let us not forget that the same cop had already been the subject if disciplinary investigations from another force and he escaped proceedings when he decided to spend more time with his family; only to be rehired by the Met.

At the very least, the cop should be subject to disciplinary proceedings and if found guilty, dismissed from the force with loss of pension. Failure to do so will simply push the UK further down the road of becoming yet another banana republic.

Cheers,
Nick
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  #44  
Old 22.07.2010, 21:56
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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As a citizen of a country it is your duty to obey the law and the police is the voice and face of the law, therefore giving them more authority.
Wrong. The face and voice of the law is the elected parliament and the judiciary.

Cheers,
Nick
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  #45  
Old 22.07.2010, 22:06
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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I've got half a mind to close this thread already, but the other half is saying this could be a worthwhile discussion. That is a discussion, not an argument, nor a mud slinging session.

Let's keep it civil guys.
Or what? A shove in the back?
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  #46  
Old 22.07.2010, 22:14
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

These sort of articles really get me worked up...

What the hell is wrong with you, i really feel bad that this guy has died
but i agree with chicago...the police men hate demos, but thy have to do there job which we pay them to do. So if someone wants to demonstrate about something do it in a friendly march and not this type of demo. What would the police be like if everything thy would do and so thy would get sued there would be no order...
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  #47  
Old 22.07.2010, 22:17
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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These sort of articles really get me worked up...

What the hell is wrong with you, i really feel bad that this guy has died
but i agree with chicago...the police men hate demos, but thy have to do there job which we pay them to do. So if someone wants to demonstrate about something do it in a friendly march and not this type of demo. What would the police be like if everything thy would do and so thy would get sued there would be no order...
Sigh....

This man was not a demonstrator. Please read the press, watch the video and read the previous posts.
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  #48  
Old 22.07.2010, 22:19
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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These sort of articles really get me worked up...

What the hell is wrong with you, i really feel bad that this guy has died
but i agree with chicago...the police men hate demos, but thy have to do there job which we pay them to do. So if someone wants to demonstrate about something do it in a friendly march and not this type of demo. What would the police be like if everything thy would do and so thy would get sued there would be no order...

Have you actually read about this story or seen the footage?

The gentleman was not actually part of the protest. He was a local man making his way home after work. Not a protester, rioter or anything like that. Just a local newspaper seller who chose the wrong time to pack up and go home......
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  #49  
Old 22.07.2010, 23:52
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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...Violence from a police officer in any capacity should not be tolerated. ...
Of course violence from police is acceptable and tolerable. It goes with the territory. The anti-police "pig" rhetoric is rather tiresome.
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  #50  
Old 22.07.2010, 23:55
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

If some big chunk of bacon so much as touched me, I'd dedicate a whole month to dragging them into alleyways and twisting their heads off.
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  #51  
Old 23.07.2010, 00:41
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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Of course violence from police is acceptable and tolerable. It goes with the territory. The anti-police "pig" rhetoric is rather tiresome.
I am by no means anti-police. They do a very hard job in changing and challenging times. However shall we say 'excessive' force should be dealt with. There is a line that should not be crossed and when an innocent person loses their life you have to question the people involved, as you would do in any situation of that nature if police were involved or not.
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  #52  
Old 23.07.2010, 00:47
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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The autopsy was inconclusive.


According to your source: there were two autopsies indicating organ problems. First: failure of the coranary artery/heart attack. Second: hemorrhage in the abdominal cavity and cirrhosis of the liver. Both medical conditions often associated with excessive alcohol consumption. I didn't see him hit with a baton. Was that in a different video?


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You draw far too many conclusions about how he died and what killed him. Do you really think for one minute he would have died of the same on the way home without the assault by the Police? He was walking away from the Police.


I only watched the video that you posted. There was no reason to believe this man could have died from what I saw. Again, was there a second video with more information?

The comment that he was just walking home doesn’t seem to explain the facts. You’re trying to say that he strolled through 35,000 protesters and just happened to end up at the front of the riot police line in front of all the camera people on his way home. The report indicates that he was bitten by a police dog "earlier" this implies to me that he was told to move away but didn't, then stayed in the area. Then in the video he was clearly pushed lightly by the police officer to get him to move away. But he seemed to keep ending up in front of the police again… and again. You are of the opinion that he was just walking home?

We all make choices. This one may have killed him. I don't see how it was the shove though.



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The Met are infamous for over excessive aggression towards protesters.


That would explain the reaction to this situation growing into a frenzy. People may be so frustrated that they are adding other experiences and stories when assessing the situation. This distorts the facts of this specific incidence. I’m here in Switzerland and don’t know the local history and extended experiences. If excessive police aggression is in fact a problem, perhaps the attention drawn by the public outrage will instigate some changes. Hopefully, it also encourages some common sense behavior like not pacing back and forth in front of a line of riot police.


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This incident begs for an example to be made.


Suspension, public condemnation, threat of life in prison, accused of murder, these are big punishments for a shove during a demonstration.




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  #53  
Old 23.07.2010, 01:20
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

you are good! I agree on every single point and tried to bring that across. I guess my discussion skills are not quit there yet to put it in the way you jsut did!
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  #54  
Old 23.07.2010, 01:48
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

Someone might perhaps take another look in better quality at what he was sauntering through, hands in pockets, then tell me again that this is normal behaviour for Joe Public...

As far as I can see, the first 6 seconds show how close the demo line was (AFAICS about 5 metres). The segment from 1:10 to 1:25 is also quite interesting. But I'm happy to stand corrected...
.
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Old 23.07.2010, 03:19
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

Demonstrations are dangerous situations for protesters, bystanders and those attempting to control the crowd. Everyone should use caution.

To get some perspective. Here is some overall footage from the April 1, 2009 G20 protests.

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