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Old 22.07.2010, 17:47
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Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

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A police officer who was filmed pushing a man to the ground during the G20 protests will not face charges over his death.

Ian Tomlinson, 47, died after being caught up in the clashes on 1 April 2009 in the City of London.

Director of Public Prosecutions Keir Starmer said there was no prospect of conviction because experts could not agree on how Mr Tomlinson died.

Last edited by Upthehatters2008; 22.07.2010 at 18:38. Reason: OP Title distracts from the debate.
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Old 22.07.2010, 17:58
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

nor should in my opinion. He clearly provokes being pushed out of the way and the cop doesn not push that hard with intend to kill.

Sad he died but in my opinion nothing should have been brought against the cop
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:06
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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nor should in my opinion. He clearly provokes being pushed out of the way and the cop doesn not push that hard with intend to kill.

Sad he died but in my opinion nothing should have been brought against the cop
Surely you don't believe he provoked the cop ?
He was an innocent newspaper seller trying to get home. The Cops were up for it. A man died as a result of harsh unnecessary treatment. Justice dictates that action is taken.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:10
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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Surely you don't believe he provoked the cop ?
He was an innocent newspaper seller trying to get home. The Cops were up for it. A man died as a result of harsh unnecessary treatment. Justice dictates that action is taken.

I read this post after:
You do not see the cops saying to get out away with a dog biting his ankles....
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:13
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nor should in my opinion. He clearly provokes being pushed out of the way and the cop doesn not push that hard with intend to kill.

Sad he died but in my opinion nothing should have been brought against the cop
What a stupid statement. Police are there to help and support the general public, not push them or intimidate them in any way. And what rubbish you are talking, the Brutish policeman pushes the guy to the ground, in the back! 2 out of 3 autopsies confirmed that a violent event brought a long term illness to a terminal conclusion, but as was dealt with in the 'Peach' case, the health of the individual does not grant the offender carte blanche to commit murder. He was not part of the riot and Britain is not a police state, you pay your taxes, you have the right to walk down the street when ever you like, so the 'provoking' affirmation is baseless.
And it was an attack because the policeman was not in any danger nor protecting himself, it was a proactive action of violence by the police, one of many that day.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:18
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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What a stupid statement. Police are there to help and support the general public, not push them or intimidate them in any way. And what rubbish you are talking, the Brutish policeman pushes the guy to the ground, in the back! 2 out of 3 autopsies confirmed that a violent event brought a long term illness to a terminal conclusion, but as was dealt with in the 'Peach' case, the health of the individual does not grant the offendercarte blanche to commit murder. He was not part of the riot and Britain is not a police state, you pay your taxes, you have the right to walk down the street when ever you like, so the 'provoking' affirmation is baseless.
And it was an attack because the policeman was not in any danger nor protecting himself, it was a proactive action of violence by the police, one of many that day.

You do not have the right to keep walking if the cop tells you not to. Thats the way it is even in England and because of crap like this Police doesnt get respect anymore.

I am saying if he was not part of it, he could have walked behind the line or whatever. The whole riot was a treat to the police and general public and he was considered to be part of it.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:19
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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You do not have the right to keep walking if the cop tells you not to. Thats the way it is even in England and because of crap like this Police doesnt get respect anymore.

I am saying if he was not part of it, he could have walked behind the line or whatever. The whole riot was a treat to the police and general public and he was considered to be part of it.
He was walking away from the cops with his hands in his pockets !!!
How more harmless do you want a victim to be ? He worked in the area and was going on his usual route home.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:23
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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He was walking away from the cops with his hands in his pockets !!!
How more harmless do you want a victim to be ? He worked in the area and was going on his usual route home.

You do not know what he said (nor do I ) but it was clear in my eyes he was not working with the police and therefor seen as a protester>threat>pushed out of the way. cop did so with minimal force(a good push but not that strong) the guy simply fell over and ......

You want cops to ask nicely for protesters, thieves, etc to stop doing it and be on their way? oh wait thats what todays society has already come to....

Any other takers for the discussion? just dont want to turn this into a pissing match again as both our minds are made up....
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:32
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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You do not have the right to keep walking if the cop tells you not to. Thats the way it is even in England and because of crap like this Police doesnt get respect anymore.

I am saying if he was not part of it, he could have walked behind the line or whatever. The whole riot was a treat to the police and general public and he was considered to be part of it.
You, friend, are an idiot, if you believe the words you so vehemently utter. But because you are quite obviously a foreigner unused to British politics I give you the benefit of the doubt and advise you to listen to your more moderate, (and British) peers.

We invented the Police, and we ultimately control their actions and pay their wages, that is why they must call us ‘sir’, it may not be the case in the rest of Europe or America, but it is the case in Britain. We have no curfew or police controlled state, a police man can only issue orders to a member of the public if he has good reason to believe he is involved in or abetting criminal actions, the same goes for arrest and stopping and searching.
The protesters where ‘kettled’ pregnant women and people going to and from work where illegally detained in the street for up to 12 hours, nobody in the ‘kettle’ could leave, which is an abuse of police power in itself.

Hot tip – get the facts, and learn basic spelling / grammatical syntax
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:35
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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You, friend, are an idiot, if you believe the words you so vehemently utter. But because you are quite obviously a foreigner unused to British politics I give you the benefit of the doubt and advise you to listen to your more moderate, (and British) peers.

We invented the Police, and we ultimately control their actions and pay their wages, that is why they must call us ‘sir’, it may not be the case in the rest of Europe or America, but it is the case in Britain. We have no curfew or police controlled state, a police man can only issue orders to a member of the public if he has good reason to believe he is involved in or abetting criminal actions, the same goes for arrest and stopping and searching.
The protesters where ‘kettled’ pregnant women and people going to and from work where illegally detained in the street for up to 12 hours, nobody in the ‘kettle’ could leave, which is an abuse of police power in itself.

Hot tip – get the facts, and learn basic spelling / grammatical syntax
I hope one day you will need to police and they will not be there.

As far as the spelling goes...can you read, write and speak 3 languages and intermediately speak 2 other? When you do then feel free to comment.


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Old 22.07.2010, 18:35
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

The Police may not interfere with a citizen going about his lawful business.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:36
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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You, friend, are an idiot, if you believe the words you so vehemently utter. But because you are quite obviously a foreigner unused to British politics I give you the benefit of the doubt and advise you to listen to your more moderate, (and British) peers.

We invented the Police, and we ultimately control their actions and pay their wages, that is why they must call us ‘sir’, it may not be the case in the rest of Europe or America, but it is the case in Britain. We have no curfew or police controlled state, a police man can only issue orders to a member of the public if he has good reason to believe he is involved in or abetting criminal actions, the same goes for arrest and stopping and searching.
The protesters where ‘kettled’ pregnant women and people going to and from work where illegally detained in the street for up to 12 hours, nobody in the ‘kettle’ could leave, which is an abuse of police power in itself.

Hot tip – get the facts, and learn basic spelling / grammatical syntax
Please stop insulting people you disagree with. His spelling has nothing to do with the veracity of his argument.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:29
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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What a stupid statement. Police are there to help and support the general public, not push them or intimidate them in any way. And what rubbish you are talking, the Brutish policeman pushes the guy to the ground, in the back! 2 out of 3 autopsies confirmed that a violent event brought a long term illness to a terminal conclusion, but as was dealt with in the 'Peach' case, the health of the individual does not grant the offender carte blanche to commit murder. He was not part of the riot and Britain is not a police state, you pay your taxes, you have the right to walk down the street when ever you like, so the 'provoking' affirmation is baseless.
And it was an attack because the policeman was not in any danger nor protecting himself, it was a proactive action of violence by the police, one of many that day.
Oh please, that day the police were under a lot of strain and suffered enough of the attacks you mentioned during that period. Certainly the video's shown depict the rozzers in the worst possible light, but that sells news print. Police are human and can make mistakes or act in a way that in hind sight and from the comfort of an arm chair can be singled out as terrible.

I don't believe that the police should be immediately subject to the same process as civilians. In the broader context, if during riots or disturbances the police cannot act (mostly well within reason) for fear of prosecution, they will do nothing (bystanders refusing to give 1st aid syndrome), then when the sh1t hits the fan they be accused of standing by and doing nothing.... so either way they are damned.

Should the cop face an internal disciplinary panel certainly, and be punished accordingly. If he'd have laid into the guy, criminal action definately, but he pushed the guy to move him along, from which the poor guy died. So tragic, but not murder.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:33
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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Oh please, that day the police were under a lot of strain and suffered enough of the attacks you mentioned during that period. Certainly the video's shown depict the rozzers in the worst possible light, but that sells news print. Police are human and can make mistakes or act in a way that in hind sight and from the comfort of an arm chair can be singled out as terrible.

I don't believe that the police should be immediately subject to the same process as civilians. In the broader context, if during riots or disturbances the police cannot act (mostly well within reason) for fear of prosecution, they will do nothing (bystanders refusing to give 1st aid syndrome), then when the sh1t hits the fan they be accused of standing by and doing nothing.... so either way they are damned.

Should the cop face an internal disciplinary panel certainly, and be punished accordingly. If he'd have laid into the guy, criminal action definately, but he pushed the guy to move him along, from which the poor guy died. So tragic, but not murder.
As I corrected myself earlier on, Murder was a play on words. Clearly , as a man died as a result of unwarranted Police action, the lesser crime of Manslaughter is easier and safer to apply.

The police are subject to the same laws and rules as us, i.e. we all have to act within the law. Have a good look at that area and time in the video, people are smiling , laughing and bantering. The police were standing by looking calm and having no need to act. Note the lack of riot shields and riot Police. There were no riots there.
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Old 22.07.2010, 19:38
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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As I corrected myself earlier on, Murder was a play on words. Clearly , as a man died as a result of unwarranted Police action, the lesser crime of Manslaughter is easier and safer to apply.

The police are subject to the same laws and rules as us, i.e. we all have to act within the law. Have a good look at that area and time in the video, people are smiling , laughing and bantering. The police were standing by looking calm and having no need to act. Note the lack of riot shields and riot Police. There were no riots there.
I know, just speaking my mind

They should be accountable absolutely, BUT, the management of the law with regard to police I believe should be handled differently for the boys in blue.... and that doesn't mean ignored or covered up.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:35
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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Oh please, that day the police were under a lot of strain and suffered enough of the attacks you mentioned during that period. Certainly the video's shown depict the rozzers in the worst possible light, but that sells news print. Police are human and can make mistakes or act in a way that in hind sight and from the comfort of an arm chair can be singled out as terrible.

I don't believe that the police should be immediately subject to the same process as civilians. In the broader context, if during riots or disturbances the police cannot act (mostly well within reason) for fear of prosecution, they will do nothing (bystanders refusing to give 1st aid syndrome), then when the sh1t hits the fan they be accused of standing by and doing nothing.... so either way they are damned.

Should the cop face an internal disciplinary panel certainly, and be punished accordingly. If he'd have laid into the guy, criminal action definately, but he pushed the guy to move him along, from which the poor guy died. So tragic, but not murder.
Certainly not murder, you're right. We all do things in the heat of the moment. Maybe you loose it and hit someone. Maybe he's an epileptic and you didn't know and he has a fit and dies. You're going to jail. It's terrible for you too, but thats the way it goes.


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You do not have the right to keep walking if the cop tells you not to. Thats the way it is even in England and because of crap like this Police doesnt get respect anymore.

I am saying if he was not part of it, he could have walked behind the line or whatever. The whole riot was a treat to the police and general public and he was considered to be part of it.
Oh god. Yes you do have the right to keep walking whatever the police say. Why on earth should police be given any more respect than anyone else? Walking in front of a line rather than behind it does not mean you forfeit your life. What's it like to see the world in such simplistic terms? I hope you never accidentally walk left when the sign says right. The world will surely end.
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Old 22.07.2010, 18:41
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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Why on earth should police be given any more respect than anyone else? Walking in front of a line rather than behind it does not mean you forfeit your life. What's it like to see the world in such simplistic terms? I hope you never accidentally walk left when the sign says right. The world will surely end.

Cause the police are the ones that will clear up the murder, the mess, the riot, the whatever. Because they need to put themselves in situations every day where I would rather not be in, nor would you I assume. Thats why I give them respect and I wish more people would as I for one do not like to walk alone in big cities (speaking from experience). As a citizen of a country it is your duty to obey the law and the police is the voice and face of the law, therefore giving them more authority.
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Old 22.07.2010, 20:04
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with manslaughter [was murder]

Seems a bit naive to me to consider this man who unfortunately died as an innocent victim.

Remember that this took place during a G-20 demonstration in London with 35,000 demonstrators.

Assuming that he was of average or above intelligence, he chose to walk slowly, hands in pockets almost in a “whistle while you walk down a quiet lane” posture. The nonsense of it is that he was walking in between two moving walls of people; one wall of riot police in bright yellow vests telling people to clear the street with barking dogs; second, a wall of photographers ready to capture the anticipated confrontation. He was more gently pushed to the side once, and then chose to walk back towards the center of the police again.

He was either provocative or stumbling blind drunk. Maybe a few too many pints caused the damaged liver and hemorrhaging stomach for which the autopsy indicated that he died. A shove in the back does not result in deadly organ failure. That takes years of unhealthy living. Although the shove was harder than perhaps necessary, there was no reason to think that it would have caused the death of an otherwise healthy adult. Simply moving out of the way when asked and protesting in the designated area would have prevented the entire incident.

I’m sorry for his family’s loss. I also expect the police to keep demonstrators from damaging things and/or hurting visiting diplomats.
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Old 22.07.2010, 21:50
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Re: Yet again the Met get away with murder.

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but he pushed the guy to move him along, from which the poor guy died. So tragic, but not murder.
The cop drove his baton into the leg of the victim - this is a martial arts technique specifically designed to bring an opponent to the floor; I know because a Police DCS (who also teaches combat technique at police colleges) taught the technique at an Aikido summer school I attended many moons ago.

The fact that the guy died is bad enough; however it seems very convenient that the DPP waited until after the time limit when an assault charge could be brought to announce their decision; plus all the attempted and frankly clumsy cover ups just serve to exacerbate the situation.

Also let us not forget that the same cop had already been the subject if disciplinary investigations from another force and he escaped proceedings when he decided to spend more time with his family; only to be rehired by the Met.

At the very least, the cop should be subject to disciplinary proceedings and if found guilty, dismissed from the force with loss of pension. Failure to do so will simply push the UK further down the road of becoming yet another banana republic.

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Old 22.07.2010, 18:02
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A police officer who was filmed pushing a man to the ground during the G20 protests will not face charges over his death.

Ian Tomlinson, 47, died after being caught up in the clashes on 1 April 2009 in the City of London.

Director of Public Prosecutions Keir Starmer said there was no prospect of conviction because experts could not agree on how Mr Tomlinson died.
OK, "murder" is a bit strong, but certainly the cop should be fired, if not even serve some time behind bars. He didn't intend to do the guy harm, but if I push someone and he falls and dies, I go to jail. So should the cop.
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