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  #21  
Old 09.09.2010, 17:00
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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True, but I was not thinking on lines of religion but as a whole, the bad guys are always the others are the "terrorists" In Afghanistan and other places on this rock "they" think that "our" lot are the terrorists and need to be destroyed, only they do not have planes and tanks and stat based intel they have something far better "ideology" a fanatic mindset and a total disregard for life, of course backed with RPG's and home-made explosives.

I did not pick my statistics, world wide outcry seems very selective these days and I think that without a few maverick reporters the news from the embedded reporters would be very one sided.
Terrorists on your side would be "freedom fighters" of course.

Apparently Al Jazeera is quite good for alternative reporting outside of the western press...
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  #22  
Old 09.09.2010, 17:08
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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There we go: they've been caught, they're going to trial.

What are we discussing here?
Once something goes to trial you shouldn't discuss it?

That's just silly.

Let me personally Godwin this thread and say that presumably all discussion of Second World War war crimes was and has always been pointless and at best 'anger porn'. Funny that people still write books and do academic research on it, isn't it?
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  #23  
Old 09.09.2010, 17:17
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

I keep trying to push this film and book. I went ot the premiere spoke with Tim Hetherington and others there was an open debate session after the film with a very mixed audience-very open and interesting





I also read the book 'War' by Tim Hetherington which I probably would have understood better if I was a military person, but nevertheless it reminded me of brutal on-on-one combat exists despite all the advanced weaponry. It really takes you into the mind of how ordinary people react when placed in a hostile environment- Scary!

I have so much admiration for Tim Hetherington and Sebastian Junger for bringing the story to the general public. Junger was hit by an IUD and Hetherington seriously injured in the filming.

Last edited by hoppy; 09.09.2010 at 17:36.
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  #24  
Old 09.09.2010, 17:18
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Terrorists on your side would be "freedom fighters" of course.



Apparently Al Jazeera is quite good for alternative reporting outside of the western press...

It depends on who wins, and if you loose the then you should have at least the better propaganda.

Naah! Too biased, I try to make up my own mind.
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  #25  
Old 09.09.2010, 23:46
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Soldiers with Traumatic Brain Injury (Washington estimated 115000 others estimate many more as much as ) have not been awarded the Purple Heart.

Most TBI get better but some, perhaps tens of thousands, do not, they suffer memory loss and other cognitive problems

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trouble concentrating, following directions and remembering words.
. One of the Baghdad 5 (Sergeant Junge) injured in blast suffering memory loss resulting from TBI will or has already been sent back to Afghanistan, some TBI sufferers, like Junge, will be leading a platoon.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129606127
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  #26  
Old 09.09.2010, 23:54
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Soldiers with Traumatic Brain Injury (Washington estimated 115000 others estimate many more as much as ) have not been awarded the Purple Heart.

Most TBI get better but some, perhaps tens of thousands, do not, they suffer memory loss and other cognitive problems


. One of the Baghdad 5 (Sergeant Junge) injured in blast suffering memory loss resulting from TBI will or has already been sent back to Afghanistan, some TBI sufferers, like Junge, will be leading a platoon.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129606127
How is this relevant to a story about US war crimes?
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  #27  
Old 10.09.2010, 00:23
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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How is this relevant to a story about US war crimes?
I am not sure... let me think... you are sending soldiers back to the warfront who have had repeat successive tours of duty which they didn't sign up for, many are sufferinf from TBI or psycholgical disorders and are in charge of platoons


Sorry, No, can't be a connection huh? I mean war crimes or acts of atrocity are usually committed by the sane, rested troops with plenty of back-up support and relief

Ever seen anyone with TBI?- They are kind of jumpy, now imagine them with a gun.
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  #28  
Old 10.09.2010, 01:50
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I am not sure... let me think... you are sending soldiers back to the warfront who have had repeat successive tours of duty which they didn't sign up for, many are sufferinf from TBI or psycholgical disorders and are in charge of platoons


Sorry, No, can't be a connection huh? I mean war crimes or acts of atrocity are usually committed by the sane, rested troops with plenty of back-up support and relief

Ever seen anyone with TBI?- They are kind of jumpy, now imagine them with a gun.
I don't care to address any of the rest of your post as it is presented in quite an argumentative fashion... (cranky much?)

BUT this bit:

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which they didn't sign up for
You are aware that there has been no draft in the US for this war, right?

Which is to say, everyone who is currently in any of the branches of US military did indeed sign up for it.
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  #29  
Old 10.09.2010, 02:28
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I don't care to address any of the rest of your post as it is presented in quite an argumentative fashion... (cranky much?)


BUT this bit:


You are aware that there has been no draft in the US for this war, right?

Which is to say, everyone who is currently in any of the branches of US military did indeed sign up for it.
I get cranky when the parallels are obvious to me, but others fail to see it. I guess a simple Dahh! would have sufficed

I live in the US, know guys who are serving in Afghanistan, see the local news of casket parades, have met and talked to high ranking officers who have served., so yes I know that there is no draft. I also know where the recruitment offices are most active ( in areas of high unemployment).

You won't see many senators kids serving in Afghanistan.

So yes I know that there is no draft. What most soldiers did not expect was to be continually redeployed-

Many sign up for regular duty, some to get college or to get a job when they have a criminal record ( criminal waiver http://www.ehow.com/how_5846160_obta...al-waiver.html ) they don't read the small print about Multiple tours of duty!


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"This is a small-print item on enlistment contracts which states that after fulfillment of your regular military commitment and you are discharged, the government can, for the next two years or more, call you back to active duty," he said.
Basically anyone who joins the military and completes a tour of duty can get the "call-back to active-duty notification," Eling said.
http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2008...stan_mean.html

The suicide rate has also risen among veterans and active personnel (18 a day I think) and the evidence points to multiple tours of duty.

So we will see, maybe these killers were just regular young guys out for a bit of sadistic fun who thought that they could get it by joining the army.

Ya never know!
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  #30  
Old 10.09.2010, 02:33
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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  #31  
Old 10.09.2010, 02:51
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

I would like to register my outrage at the group of US Marines who retook a German freighter from Somali pirates without firing a shot.

I mean to say, don't they realise the damage they could do by failing to provide a target for weapons of moral indignation fired from high horses!?!?
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  #32  
Old 10.09.2010, 02:54
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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What most soldiers did not expect was to be continually redeployed
Source please.
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  #33  
Old 10.09.2010, 04:04
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Source please.
Me- just what I hear and then there is this:

What is stop loss?






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That somebody turned out to be Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He declared in March 2009 that the practice had to end, saying it was "breaking faith" with those who volunteered to serve. He had ordered the services to reduce stop loss in 2007. However, the numbers of troops affected climbed more than 40% in the months that followed, largely because of the additional troops sent to Iraq.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...oss06_ST_N.htm


They were supposed to stop the practice but I think that they have reduced it by 50% probably by extending each tour of duty. I think that they extended the tours from one year to 18 months.


Am I wasting my time here, I mean you could look it up yourself.

Would you now like sources on how the tours were extended?
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  #34  
Old 10.09.2010, 04:21
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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You are aware that there has been no draft in the US for this war, right?

Which is to say, everyone who is currently in any of the branches of US military did indeed sign up for it.
Q-What is the back-door draft?

Answer-

Quote:
When people enlist with the armed services in the United States, they sign an eight year contract which includes two to four years of active duty and four to six years in the reserves. After eight years, the soldier has reached the “end of service date,” meaning that he or she may re-enlist or choose to separate from the service. In stop-loss, a soldier who is on active duty will find his or her active duty extended into the period when he or she would normally serve in the reserves. If a so-called “end of service date” falls while the soldier is on active duty, the soldier will be forced to complete the deployment before being permitted to retire from the service.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-backdoor-draft.htm

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How do I now all of this you might ask? Because I am one of those recalled soldiers. I served on active duty for five years and was honorably discharged in June, 2007. Less than a year later I received orders recalling me to service with one month's notice and I am currently deployed in the Middle East. I was definitely not alone, serving with me are more than 70 others who were recalled. All had been honorably discharged and most had been out of service for two to four years. All of us were hesitant to come back and only did so through fear of imprisonment, loss of civilian jobs, or simply guilt. I can speak with authority when I say this IS a draft. A very convenient one in which veterans who no longer wish to serve can be discredited and their lives turned upside down if they fail to comply with "federal wisdom." This is how we treat our vets? Maybe we should consider the level of support for this intervention before coercing veterans, of all people, to serve again.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=83

But again - ya never know maybe these murderers were just random sickos!

Enough cut and paste?
Hmmmm. Now where have we heard of this Stryker Brigade before?

Perhaps here in 2009?

This Week at War: Why Don't Stryker Brigades Work in Afghanistan?



http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/200...why-dont-stry/

Or even here in stop loss 2006?

Quote:
A total of 378 soldiers with the 172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team had returned to Alaska in June and July at the end of their scheduled 12-month tour in Iraq. But before the rest of the 4,000-soldier unit could redeploy, officials halted their return to bolster Iraqi and coalition forces in Baghdad.




http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=463

Perhaps I should have been a lawyer-Ha this is funny!

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But Cpl Morlock's lawyer told the Seattle Times his client's statements were made while he was suffering from concussion, was under the influence of prescription drugs, and was being evacuated.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11252987

Last edited by hoppy; 10.09.2010 at 05:34.
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  #35  
Old 10.09.2010, 10:51
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I am not sure... let me think... you are sending soldiers back to the warfront who have had repeat successive tours of duty which they didn't sign up for, many are sufferinf from TBI or psycholgical disorders and are in charge of platoons


Sorry, No, can't be a connection huh? I mean war crimes or acts of atrocity are usually committed by the sane, rested troops with plenty of back-up support and relief

Ever seen anyone with TBI?- They are kind of jumpy, now imagine them with a gun.
You're attempting to justify the actions of a killing squad who went out time and time again, in an organised way, shooting civilians for sport and collecting trophies of human body parts, by saying they were a but jumpy and were under stress from being redeployed?

Ridiculous on many levels.
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  #36  
Old 10.09.2010, 13:49
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

I am not going to try to make excuses for what these soldiers did. If anything, I have more right than the average person to be angry. I have walked in their shoes for most of my life, and like the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of other military people who have fought in these wars, killing someone for sport makes just as much sense to me as it does to you. Every time something like this happens, all of the honorable service that is done by the other 99.9% of military people is erased, and those who like to point fingers at us will have fuel for their fires for a long time.

It is often said that more is expected of us, that we are held to a higher standard, and this is why so much anger is directed towards us when we fail. When I first heard about this, I did a Google search to find news articles about it. When I typed in the word 'murder' and hit Enter, I noticed that another article containing the word murder pertained to a mother in Utah who has been charged with the death of her two children. No thread for her in EF. She isn't even a top news story. Should I feel pride that more is expected of a soldier in a war zone than what is expected of a mother and her children? I guess we have seen the mother killing her own children thing often enough that we don't even care any more.

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Being totally against Death penalty, I catch myself dreaming about it when I see cases like that...
Dreaming of it? Really? I guess that is the moral dilemma of the death penalty. Too many people dream about it as being the ultimate tool of their revenge rather than a simple removal of those who wantonly murder people.

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The suicide rate has also risen among veterans and active personnel (18 a day I think) and the evidence points to multiple tours of duty.
Ummmh.... no. In 2009, there were 244 military suicides. If my math is right, that does not come out to 18 a day. Strangely enough, in an average year between 300 and 400 doctors in the United States kill themselves, but no one is really trying to paint them as a group of mentally damaged, stressed out lunatics, so no point in their suicides ever making the news.

Dear Hoppy, I know that you are only trying to make us look like the victims, and perhaps that when we screw up, it isn't our fault. But most of what you post is based on stereotypes, theory, and conjecture. In truth, on average we come from homes with household incomes slightly higher than average, our education levels are higher than average for the United States, our racial demographics are almost mirror images of the civilian population. In short, we are much like any average citizen, we simply chose to follow a path different than most. I am offended that you paint us as fools who did not understand our obligations when we joined. The films you watch may tell you something different, but the problem with these films is that they are often made and edited by someone with an agenda.

So, how could this happen? How could these wonderful people decide to kill innocent civilians? Much like you we are not perfect. read a newspaper and you will find that all kinds of people are going on shooting sprees, raping people, murdering their own children, putting cats in rubbish containers, and throwing newborn puppies in rivers. It happens. You can argue that this is so much more wrong because more is expected of us, and you are right for feeling so. I feel that you can put us on a pedestal, because 99.9% of the time we stay on that pedestal quite comfortably. Like many people who can be put into a category because of an apparent difference, I get offended when we are judged all the same because of the actions of a few.
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  #37  
Old 10.09.2010, 14:04
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

This is my view on such dramas.

If you delete/erase/minus-out the religion. It's just human killing another human. The worst kind is the one who kills for sport, fun & self-amusement.

One shouldn't murder, but should one kill another, that one deserves to be put out also. No remorse, no sympathy.
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  #38  
Old 10.09.2010, 14:07
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

al ciada you mean.....
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  #39  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:36
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Ummmh.... no. In 2009, there were 244 military suicides. If my math is right, that does not come out to 18 a day. Strangely enough, in an average year between 300 and 400 doctors in the United States kill themselves, but no one is really trying to paint them as a group of mentally damaged, stressed out lunatics, so no point in their suicides ever making the news.
Quote:
VA confirms 18 vets commit suicide every day


http://pubrecord.org/nation/322/va-c...cide-every-day
Quote:
Army reports record number of suicides for June
http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...suicides_N.htm


So, how could this happen? How could these wonderful people decide to kill innocent civilians? I feel that you can put us on a pedestal, because 99.9% of the time we stay on that pedestal quite comfortably. Like many people who can be put into a category because of an apparent difference, I get offended when we are judged all the same because of the actions of a few.
I do believe that it is a mixed crowd and the ones that I met deserve to be put on a pedestal.

Shortly before going to Afghanistan a group of soldiers with (whom my Iranian husband and I did Wing Chun with led by Service men) came to our party, sat in a room full of Iranian artefacts and discussed cultural differences with us. They joined the services to serve their country, to get and education and to earn-they are not well off.

Two of our best friends are ex-military (the forces funded their Georgetown education both first generation university graduates) one was a submarine captain, others are pilots, mechanics. We live next door to a base, on a daily basis we will see uniformed personnel shopping at the local Walmart the next-door neighbour who cares for our house and whose son is in the marines is ex-military.

Which is why I went to see Restrepo, a purely documentary film it carefully tries to avoid any political bias. We sat in discussion with families of those serving and those who made the film. The men in Restrepo didn't resort to taking pot shots at locals or keeping body parts, they do in my mind deserve medals. Would I have cracked in the same circumstances- I don't know.
I am not judging you or the forces by the actions of a few. I am judging the intelligence of those who put them in harm's way, without adequate relief or back-up expecting all to act heroically and none to crack.

I argue that something has to be done to change the situation. This is not a conventional war and should not be approached in conventional terms. The forces are fighting a people that have survived generation after generation of PTSD.

However the forces are not a representative a cross section- homosexuality is not allowed- or is it?
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  #40  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:57
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

I'm sorry hoppy, but your arguments make me shake my head in wonder... at you.

What you hear from friends, what you see in a movie, those are not equal to what someone who has grown up in the environment (me) or what someone who has LIVED in that environment (ExMilExPat) has heard, seen and known. They simply can not be.

Even friends telling you a story has an agenda to paint themselves in a certain light for you. What you see when folks are off base is generally also a picture. While there is some truth to the stories and pictures, they are not the whole story or the whole picture... more like a short or a snapshot.

So, have your thoughts of whatever you like but keep in mind, you have merely been fed (by the media, friends, politicians) what those people want you to think.
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