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  #41  
Old 10.09.2010, 15:30
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I'm sorry hoppy, but your arguments make me shake my head in wonder... at you.

What you hear from friends, what you see in a movie, those are not equal to what someone who has grown up in the environment (me) or what someone who has LIVED in that environment (ExMilExPat) has heard, seen and known. They simply can not be.

Even friends telling you a story has an agenda to paint themselves in a certain light for you. What you see when folks are off base is generally also a picture. While there is some truth to the stories and pictures, they are not the whole story or the whole picture... more like a short or a snapshot.

So, have your thoughts of whatever you like but keep in mind, you have merely been fed (by the media, friends, politicians) what those people want you to think.
You grew up in service in Afghanistan? Oh so did my ex-husband- wow small world!
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  #42  
Old 10.09.2010, 16:04
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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You grew up in service in Afghanistan? Oh so did my ex-husband- wow small world!

When did I say that? What I HAVE said, several times, is that my father was career Marine. I lived the first 23 years of my life on one military base or another.

What your "military" friends may say to you and / or in front of your Iranian husband is designed to present a particular picture for you... surely that is one of those things that falls into a "no brainer" category? I'm not saying they'd (necessarily) purposefully be untrue but certain things are subconscious.

Heck, none of my friends knows the WHOLE me either and I don't have to worry (however deep in the "back" of my mind - or not) about what they'll think if I or my brother kills their brother or auntie or anything like that.
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  #43  
Old 10.09.2010, 16:21
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

[QUOTE=Peg A;939604]
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When did I say that? What I HAVE said, several times, is that my father was career Marine. I lived the first 23 years of my life on one military base or another.
Oh, I thought that you had experience of Afghanistan- clearly not- Sorry


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What your "military" friends may say to you and / or in front of your Iranian husband is designed to present a particular picture for you... surely that is one of those things that falls into a "no brainer" category? I'm not saying they'd (necessarily) purposefully be untrue but certain things are subconscious.
You presume to know the political standpoint of my husband, and the way that others react to him, even I don't presume to do that. He continues to fascinate me, I know that he definitely isn't a no-brainer! You seem to forget that there are Muslims and those of Iranian, Afghani, Iraqi etc. heritage in the US forces. Are you suggesting that Us soldiers do not treat those from other countries as their equals, that army personnel are guided by subconscious elements when it comes to cultural differences?

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Heck, none of my friends knows the WHOLE me either and I don't have to worry (however deep in the "back" of my mind - or not) about what they'll think if I or my brother kills their brother or auntie or anything like that.
Go figure!
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  #44  
Old 10.09.2010, 16:27
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I do believe that it is a mixed crowd and the ones that I met deserve to be put on a pedestal.

------------------
However the forces are not a representative a cross section- homosexuality is not allowed- or is it?
Hoppy, I am glad that the military people you do know are good and honorable people. But whenever I read your posts that pertain to the military, you are often quoting some far out statistic that you find on some obscure website that is likely a one man operation. For example, I refuse to take the first link in your latest post as a credible news source.
http://pubrecord.org/nation/322/va-c...cide-every-day
I will accept the second link as credible, http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...suicides_N.htm mainly because it does not even remotely support the information in your first link, and secondly because the writer of the article has a real name, not "The Public Record Staff" (?). I'm afraid that I am one of those people that simply cannot accept the idea of "I found it on the internet, so therefore it is true".

When I read your posts, I find that they could possibly lead the reader into believing that the United States Military is manned by brain damaged, drug addled, undereducated kids from the ghetto that had no idea what they were getting into. This conflicts with everything I encountered in my 23 years of service with the United States Marine Corps (for those who are wondering, I am not Peg A's father). No, I was not a submarine captain, nor was I a pilot or any other job that might seclude me from the realities of the common servicemen. I spent all 23 years as an enlisted Infantryman. Much of the information that you have added to this post concerning military servicemen pertains to outliers and not the norm.

By the way, your comment about the military not being a cross section of the American public because of homosexuality does not hold water with me. There have always been gays in the military, and there will always be gays in the military. Policies that are put in place to govern this subject are not created by the people who serve. I think that if you asked an actual cross section of military people what their opinion is, most would agree with me on this subject. My opinion is that I personally don't care about anyone else's sexual orientation. It has absolutely no bearing on my life as long as they do their job. Yes, I am quite sure you can find a quote somewhere from a serviceman who is absolutely against homosexuality, but once again the vast majority of us don't care enough to make our opinions on this subject heard on the internet.
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  #45  
Old 10.09.2010, 16:48
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I refuse to take the first link in your latest post as a credible news source.
http://pubrecord.org/nation/322/va-c...cide-every-day
Would you accept this? (The highest rate is among 20-24 year-olds)

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So CBS News did an investigation - asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information.

And what it revealed was stunning.

In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. That’s 120 each and every week, in just one year.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n3496471.shtml

I mix with a wide cross-section that's US society for you I do sometimes seek out outliers, they are interesting to talk to. But generally I am with ordinary people. Actually have to go to Walmart in a minute.

I am very upset about the way that vets suffering from PTSD are treated.

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By the way, your comment about the military not being a cross section of the American public because of homosexuality does not hold water with me. There have always been gays in the military, and there will always be gays in the military. Policies that are put in place to govern this subject are not created by the people who serve. I think that if you asked an actual cross section of military people what their opinion is, most would agree with me on this subject. My opinion is that I personally don't care about anyone else's sexual orientation. It has absolutely no bearing on my life as long as they do their job. Yes, I am quite sure you can find a quote somewhere from a serviceman who is absolutely against homosexuality, but once again the vast majority of us don't care enough to make our opinions on this subject heard on the internet.
Great! So why the policy of Don't ask Don't tell? The US army must evolve to fight its enemies and win allies, they and the US public must rethink the stereotypes of conventional war, not just with regards to weaponry but with regards to intelligence.
By the way I tried to sign up myself when I was bout 17 went through all the tests etc. It seemed like good idea at the time. I came form a broken home and didn't havemuch in the way of options. They told me I would be in information systems whatever that is, my parents ( pacifists) wouldn't sign the forms.
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  #46  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:25
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Would you accept this? (The highest rate is among 20-24 year-olds)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n3496471.shtml

I mix with a wide cross-section that's US society for you I do sometimes seek out outliers, they are interesting to talk to. But generally I am with ordinary people. Actually have to go to Walmart in a minute.

I am very upset about the way that vets suffering from PTSD are treated.


Great! So why the policy of Don't ask Don't tell? The US army must evolve to fight its enemies and win allies, they and the US public must rethink the stereotypes of conventional war, not just with regards to weaponry but with regards to intelligence.
By the way I tried to sign up myself when I was bout 17 went through all the tests etc. It seemed like good idea at the time. I came form a broken home and didn't havemuch in the way of options. They told me I would be in information systems whatever that is, my parents ( pacifists) wouldn't sign the forms.
We should be talking about dead Afghan civilians.
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  #47  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:37
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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You presume to know the political standpoint of my husband, and the way that others react to him, even I don't presume to do that. He continues to fascinate me, I know that he definitely isn't a no-brainer!
I presume nothing about your husband. My statements are about how the military folks and their family are likely to behave, not he.

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You seem to forget that there are Muslims and those of Iranian, Afghani, Iraqi etc. heritage in the US forces.
No. How one treats someone who they work along side, wearing the same uniform is often quite different than how one treats a friend at a dinner party.

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Are you suggesting that Us soldiers do not treat those from other countries as their equals, that army personnel are guided by subconscious elements when it comes to cultural differences?
I'm suggestion that people subconsciously present a specific side of themselves to "outsiders"... whether they are Iranian (as you keep pointing out that your husband is - for whatever reason, YOU obviously think this is an important factor, I merely picked up on it ) or wherever else they are from doesn't entirely matter. Will the fact that your husband is Iranian (whatever his politics are ) influence them subconsciously to some degree? It's obviously influenced YOU so why should it not them?
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  #48  
Old 10.09.2010, 17:43
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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We should be talking about dead Afghan civilians.
Not who is killing them and why?

They apparently lobbed a grenade and then shot at a man stooped behind a wall in a Poppy field for no apparent reason except maybe this:

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Morlock's credibility is expected to be a big issue as the government moves forward to prosecute the soldiers.
Waddington, Morlock's attorney, said his client's statements were made under the influence of drugs. Morlock had a brutal year in Afghanistan, where he was exposed to four separate explosions that caused traumatic brain injury, the attorney said.
To help him remain in Afghanistan, he was prescribed a cornucopia of legal prescription drugs that included anti-depressants, muscle relaxers and a sleep drug frequently used by soldiers diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, Waddington said.
There was significant use of hashish and occasional opium use in Morlock's platoon, according to Waddington.
In May, Army medical staff decided to evacuate Morlock due to his head injuries. Shortly before his departure, investigators started questioning him about the civilian killings.
"Our position is that his statements were incoherent, and taken while he was under a cocktail of drugs that shouldn't have been mixed," Waddington said. "What he said is not consistent with other evidence that comes out of the case."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...deaths25m.html

The US is already well aware of the high morbidity rate among Afghan civilians, the question is why and is the killing justified?
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  #49  
Old 10.09.2010, 18:19
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

[QUOTE=Peg A;939758]
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I presume nothing about your husband. My statements are about how the military folks and their family are likely to behave, not he.
So you presume to speak for all military families?



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No. How one treats someone who they work along side, wearing the same uniform is often quite different than how one treats a friend at a dinner party.
In what way? With any more or less respect for cultural differences?
Please explain more carefully what you mean when you say this......

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What your "military" friends may say to you and / or in front of your Iranian husband is designed to present a particular picture for you... surely that is one of those things that falls into a "no brainer" category? I'm not saying they'd (necessarily) purposefully be untrue but certain things are subconscious
.


so that I can understand better. What certain things are subconscious?

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Will the fact that your husband is Iranian (whatever his politics are ) influence them subconsciously to some degree? It's obviously influenced YOU so why should it not them?
I just assumed that they wanted to understand the culture of a country that they are going to, that's kind of natural isn't it? Although Iranians are not Afghans they share a common language, certain cultural similarities and have some insight being close neighbours. However they will point out as many differences as similarities. People usually are inquisitive about Iranian culture, we can get bored answering the same questions. We prefer to argue it out with each other. I was influenced by my first husband and to some degree my family. I am not sure if this husband influences the way I think on Iran. Iranians (it might surprise you to know) like people in the forces and even afghans are a wide cross section. He's a scientist and much more right-wing than me. I am a liberal and don't see everything so black and white.

I think that basically what influences people is an ability to see beyond cultural barriers to know that basically underneath we all share the same emotions. Are you drawing parallels and suggesting that these atrocity-committing-soldiers and soldiers in general are motivated by subconscious forces that exist as a result of culture?

What culture- army culture?
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  #50  
Old 10.09.2010, 19:00
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Fort Carson, anyone?
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  #51  
Old 10.09.2010, 19:50
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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What most soldiers did not expect was to be continually redeployed
Source please.
Me- just what I hear and then there is this:
Your unsubstantiated opinion, and an MTV film trailer. Wow!

What a blivet you are.
.
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  #52  
Old 10.09.2010, 19:59
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Not who is killing them and why?
Your whole aegis seems to be to give the killing squad an excuse. Most of your posts seemed designed to engender sympathy for soldiers in the US Army. I have no doubt that the majority of soldiers in the US Army and Marine Corp are decent and honourable, but I don't think we should be discussing that in response to news of a killing squad operating in Afghanistan. I really really don't think you gain somehow explain the operation of a co-ordinated killing team through PTSD etc. I don't think we'd be giving that kind of response to the actions of other combatants.
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  #53  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:01
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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and is the killing justified?
We're not talking about the wider issue of collateral damage and 'justified' (hmmmm) killing.

It's clear that the killing squad's actions were not justified and do not fit within the wider context of civilian casualties.
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  #54  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:05
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

So have these soldiers been found guilty yet?

...by the court, I mean, not the EF Armchair Lynchmob...
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  #55  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:13
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Your unsubstantiated opinion, and an MTV film trailer. Wow!

What a blivet you are.
.
Wrong go back and read the post I gave you this as well



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That somebody turned out to be Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He declared in March 2009 that the practice had to end, saying it was "breaking faith" with those who volunteered to serve. He had ordered the services to reduce stop loss in 2007. However, the numbers of troops affected climbed more than 40% in the months that followed, largely because of the additional troops sent to Iraq.




http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...oss06_ST_N.htm


Clearly you don't know that the Film Stop loss actually helped to bring the attention of stop loss to he US government by the following attracted.
By Blivet I think that you mean this:



Quote:
Urban Dictionary: blivet


Ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag. A situation so vile no matter how well you deal with it you will still get dirty.
www.urbandictionary.
Is that the depth that you have had to resort to in counteracting my arguments and hiding your ignorance?
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  #56  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:28
hoppy
 
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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We're not talking about the wider issue of collateral damage and 'justified' (hmmmm) killing.

It's clear that the killing squad's actions were not justified and do not fit within the wider context of civilian casualties.
Wat is war if not killing by those who feel justified in their actions?

The whole purpose of me writing is to try to get to the bottom of Is this an isolated case or symptomatic of a general malaise within the US army caused by them being over-extended? That is the question that the US will be asking. I had said throughout that the possibility remains that they may in fact just be outliers who were out for a bit of sadistic fun, just as occurs within any cross-section of society But that is all the more reason why when you put a gun in their hands you should monitor them more carefully. Where was the oversight?

OR will another cover up be brought to light?

The Tillman story is another film that I will watch of course Weeejeem will ignore this. I mean how can a film with an MTV trailer affect public opinion. Oh Gosh I mean, MTV who watches it? Certainly not intellectuals like Weejeem!

But to the those who are are not idiots posing as intellectual snobs here is the trailer. Don't watch Weejeem your intellectual brain is probably allergic to visotrailers



And here agin (on MTV)

http://www.mtv.com/videos/movie-trai...an-story.jhtml
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  #57  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:35
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Yeah, but context aside... have they been found guilty?
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  #58  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:45
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'




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Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...pats_birthday/
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  #59  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:47
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

How does this relate to the killing squad at all?

This is simply an article showing some US soldiers against the war.

So what?
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  #60  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:49
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Probably about as guilty as the police officer who didn't kill Ian Tomlinson, at least according to one discredited so called forensic expert, and the courts.

Mind you, I'm even more ignorant in these matters than weejeem. Which isn't saying much, really.

Talk about the bleedin' obvious...
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