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  #61  
Old 10.09.2010, 21:50
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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those who volunteered to serve.
These servicemen are not volunteers. They are (like people like ExMilExpat, like myself, like many others here on EF were (and some of them still are)) professional soldiers, who choose that profession and, having chosen that profession, carried it out to the best of their professional and personal abilities. Once an individual makes that choice of profession - and it's always a choice - when orders arrive, it's not a democracy, it's not a debating society, it's a professional military fighting force that goes where and when one's told. That's what professional soldiers sign up for; that's what professional soldiers do; that's what professional soldiers are for.

But that's not what you want to hear, is it? Because that puts real life at odds with Hoppyworld™ , and ,of course, it must then be real life that's in error in such cases, and these must be corrected by a convuluted cornucopia of cut'n'paste.


As for "blivet", it has a number of meanings, some of them military, some of them not. Only you can decide whether you're a quart of sh1t in a pint pot, a self-contradictory figure, a large, empty container, something else entirely or, indeed, something else entirely.
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  #62  
Old 10.09.2010, 22:47
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

[QUOTE=weejeem;939911]These servicemen are not volunteers. They are (like people like ExMilExpat, like myself, like many others here on EF were (and some of them still are)) professional soldiers, who choose that profession and, having chosen that profession, carried it out to the best of their professional and personal abilities. Once an individual makes that choice of profession - and it's always a choice - when orders arrive, it's not a democracy, it's not a debating society, it's a professional military fighting force that goes where and when one's told. That's what professional soldiers sign up for; that's what professional soldiers do; that's what professional soldiers are for.

But that's not what you want to hear, is it? Because that puts real life at odds with Hoppyworld™ , and ,of course, it must then be real life that's in error in such cases, and these must be corrected by a convuluted cornucopia of cut'n'paste.


OK so what's this?

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America's all-volunteer military has been an overwhelming success, but faces an unprecedented challenge posed by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new RAND Corporation book that is the most detailed examination ever conducted of the force.
The book — titled “I Want You! The Evolution of the All-Volunteer Force” — concludes that the all-volunteer military has emerged as the world's strongest fighting force, attracting recruits who are better educated and more skilled than those who served in the U.S. armed forces during the military draft.
http://www.rand.org/news/press.06/09.14.html


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As for "blivet", it has a number of meanings, some of them military, some of them not. Only you can decide whether you're a quart of sh1t in a pint pot, a self-contradictory figure, a large, empty container, something else entirely or, indeed, something else entirely.
.
Oooooh I love it when you speak military especially in your Avatar get up

You are lucky I'm not on form , I've got a bug.
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  #63  
Old 10.09.2010, 22:58
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Hoppy and Weejeem - you're simply arguing about slightly different connotations of the word 'volunteer'. Hoppy, the stuff you're quoting, including the the Rand Corp's stuff, uses 'volunteer' to mean the opposite of conscripted. Weejeem is using volunteer in contrast to 'professional', to mean an amateur/unpaid force, e.g. like the Lifeboat service in the UK which is manned by volunteers.
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  #64  
Old 10.09.2010, 23:21
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Hoppy and Weejeem - you're simply arguing about slightly different connotations of the word 'volunteer'. Hoppy, the stuff you're quoting, including the the Rand Corp's stuff, uses 'volunteer' to mean the opposite of conscripted. Weejeem is using volunteer in contrast to 'professional', to mean an amateur/unpaid force, e.g. like the Lifeboat service in the UK which is manned by volunteers.
and you think I wasn't aware of that? I'm not saying that volunteers aren't professional that's Weejeem's hang up.

The two soldiers are the Tilman's- one of the biggest military cover-ups as the real reasons for the problems with the Stryker bunch might be covered up too. If wasn't a one off they killed a few-it is alleged.
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  #65  
Old 11.09.2010, 00:49
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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and you think I wasn't aware of that? I'm not saying that volunteers aren't professional that's Weejeem's hang up.

The two soldiers are the Tilman's- one of the biggest military cover-ups as the real reasons for the problems with the Stryker bunch might be covered up too. If wasn't a one off they killed a few-it is alleged.
Ah . . . I've just read back through it. What I said was wrong. You introduced the idea of a backdoor draft . . . Weejeem was pointing out that that's nonsense (as it is) because they're professionals who know what they're getting into. Apologies for my hasty and patronising attempt to clarify things.
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  #66  
Old 11.09.2010, 01:21
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Ah . . . I've just read back through it. What I said was wrong. You introduced the idea of a backdoor draft . . . Weejeem was pointing out that that's nonsense (as it is) because they're professionals who know what they're getting into. Apologies for my hasty and patronising attempt to clarify things.
No, the back door draft (aka stoploss) is where servicemen have their time extended past what they thought they signed up for as professionals in a volunteer, as opposed to drafted, army. Unfortunately at present the forces must do this because not enough people are signing up and making up numbers with criminals or greenies doesn't work.

But y'all knew that already!
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  #67  
Old 11.09.2010, 01:24
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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and you think I wasn't aware of that? I'm not saying that volunteers aren't professional that's Weejeem's hang up.

The two soldiers are the Tilman's- one of the biggest military cover-ups as the real reasons for the problems with the Stryker bunch might be covered up too. If wasn't a one off they killed a few-it is alleged.

On the one hand (or page, as the case may be) you essentially state that you think (have read, seen mtv movies and heard from friends ) that a glaring percentage of American military forces are suffering from brain injuries and ptsd...

Now you are saying that they're clever and "with it" enough to have some convoluted conspiracies of cover ups?


As I said before, you have no clue beyond what someone else wants you to believe. (And no, I don't presume to speak for all military families but I DO presume that I know more about what goes on for them than you do.)
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  #68  
Old 11.09.2010, 01:54
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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On the one hand (or page, as the case may be) you essentially state that you think (have read, seen mtv movies and heard from friends ) that a glaring percentage of American military forces are suffering from brain injuries and ptsd...

Now you are saying that they're clever and "with it" enough to have some convoluted conspiracies of cover ups?


As I said before, you have no clue beyond what someone else wants you to believe. (And no, I don't presume to speak for all military families but I DO presume that I know more about what goes on for them than you do.)
Actually I am an avid listener of NPR and PBS if that's any help.

After ProPublica/NPR TBI Investigation, Congressman Meets With Military

http://ww.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2...-with-military


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The Pentagon’s official figures show that 115,000 troops have suffered TBIs. Some studies suggest the true number could be several times higher.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/09...g-army-idiocy/
I'll leave you all to it now and come back when the results are in to see the results of the courtcase and the fallout - as I have with other threads.



Catcha later.
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  #69  
Old 11.09.2010, 02:16
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I'll leave you all to it now ... - as I have with other threads.
Plus ça change...

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“My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent. I am attacking.”
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  #70  
Old 11.09.2010, 02:56
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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But y'all knew that already!
Yes. I did know that. I read what you posted. So calling it the 'backdoor draft' is completely misleading. It's merely part of the professional contract the soldiers sign up to.

I still don't think this has ANY bearing on the killing squad case.
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  #71  
Old 11.09.2010, 05:41
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Yes. I did know that. I read what you posted. So calling it the 'backdoor draft' is completely misleading. It's merely part of the professional contract the soldiers sign up to.

I still don't think this has ANY bearing on the killing squad case.
Me neither... I still think that is as I said before...

Impressionable young men serving under a psychopath SSgt, trying to gain high esteem in his eyes after losing sight of "reality." (Smoking pot really doesn't help folks avoid this tendency either...)
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  #72  
Old 11.09.2010, 20:55
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Maybe I missed the point, but what I think weejeem was saying is that there are professional soldiers, and then there are cowboys. A bit like the building industry, I suppose.
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  #73  
Old 12.09.2010, 20:50
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I think weejeem was saying is that there are professional soldiers, and then there are cowboys.
I think that what weejeem was saying is that when one voluntarily enters certain professions, one voluntarily cedes certain rights that one had as an ordinary citizen; having done so, one cannot at a later date recover these rights purely on the basis that one relinquished said rights voluntarily.
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  #74  
Old 12.09.2010, 21:22
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Can't really argue with you there. As long as you're not calling me an anti-semite
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  #75  
Old 13.09.2010, 13:37
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Just wondering how many similar incidents are reported and how many are still secretly operated, but i am sure this is not the first incident neither the last one of them.

If USA can carpet bomb countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam ... just to get hold of minerals and resources; what else do you expect from such a army for unethical people.

hence we all know Might is Right therefore DB is correct about ignoring all similar events and not to talk about them in future
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  #76  
Old 13.09.2010, 13:50
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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These servicemen are not volunteers. They are (like people like ExMilExpat, like myself, like many others here on EF were (and some of them still are)) professional soldiers, who choose that profession and, having chosen that profession, carried it out to the best of their professional and personal abilities. Once an individual makes that choice of profession - and it's always a choice - when orders arrive, it's not a democracy, it's not a debating society, it's a professional military fighting force that goes where and when one's told. That's what professional soldiers sign up for; that's what professional soldiers do; that's what professional soldiers are for.

But that's not what you want to hear, is it? Because that puts real life at odds with Hoppyworld™ , and ,of course, it must then be real life that's in error in such cases, and these must be corrected by a convuluted cornucopia of cut'n'paste.


As for "blivet", it has a number of meanings, some of them military, some of them not. Only you can decide whether you're a quart of sh1t in a pint pot, a self-contradictory figure, a large, empty container, something else entirely or, indeed, something else entirely.
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sorrry weejem, some rights cannot be rennounced to, not even voluntarily.

And as professionals just still have some moral obligations to disabow or disobey an order.
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  #77  
Old 13.09.2010, 14:07
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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sorrry weejem, some rights cannot be rennounced to, not even voluntarily.
Indeed.

But the rights under discussion can be renounced, i.e. to refuse a recall to serve.

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And as professionals just still have some moral obligations to disabow or disobey an order.
The whole killing squad thing was nothing to do with 'just following orders'.
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  #78  
Old 13.09.2010, 14:09
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Indeed.



The whole killing squad thing was nothing to do with 'just following orders'.
I was speaking in the "professional" area, as the post seem to be a generic thing.
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  #79  
Old 13.09.2010, 15:56
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Just wondering how many similar incidents are reported and how many are still secretly operated, but i am sure this is not the first incident neither the last one of them.

If USA can carpet bomb countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam ... just to get hold of minerals and resources; what else do you expect from such a army for unethical people.

hence we all know Might is Right therefore DB is correct about ignoring all similar events and not to talk about them in future

Good grief.
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  #80  
Old 13.09.2010, 16:08
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Some rights cannot be rennounced to, not even voluntarily.

And as professionals just still have some moral obligations to disabow or disobey an order.
Fixed that for you - since you're not contradicting anything I said, you don't need to be sorry
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