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  #101  
Old 20.09.2010, 19:59
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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ofcourse they are uncapable to give justice when it is about specific people; have you ever read about doctor Afia Siddiqui its a shame on you and your system, why did they attack Iraq ? do you have had any trial for fake reports for weapons of mass destruction, who was responsible for murdering hundred thousand of innocent people for sake of your OIL NEEDS ?
So you don't think these chaps will be found guilty, then?
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  #102  
Old 21.09.2010, 10:24
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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So you don't think these chaps will be found guilty, then?
is this your answer to my question ?
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  #103  
Old 21.09.2010, 10:31
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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So you don't think these chaps will be found guilty, then?
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is this your answer to my question ?
didn't you know that DB is the Sphinx of EF....always coming up with riddles to let you pursue your quest in the thread.
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  #104  
Old 21.09.2010, 10:44
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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didn't you know that DB is the Sphinx of EF....always coming up with riddles to let you pursue your quest in the thread.
is that what you call a TROLL ?

an official troll bec he knows a few mods and wont ever get banned like others
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  #105  
Old 21.09.2010, 11:03
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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is this your answer to my question ?
It's a perfectly fair question from DB. You're questioning US military justice, so presumably the import of that to this thread is whether the killing squad will be found guilty. You seem to be suggesting that's not likely to happen. If you do think it's likely to happen then why raise the general question of military justice?

So which is it?

I think most observers think it likely that the renegade soldiers will be convicted.
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  #106  
Old 27.09.2010, 18:44
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Re: Rhttp://www.englishforum.ch/uenegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

CNN will be showing interrogation tapes of the soldiers confessing at the top of the hour they say. So I'm waiting.

CNN also featured Operation Dark Heart the first 200 copies of this book as destroyed it was reedited and passed scrutiny until passed to higher military intelligence. It is now available, but with pages of blacked out pieces of information deemed classified

http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Dark.../dp/0312612176

I have joined Sebastian Junger's community and written to one of the soldiers here is the website if anyone wants to do the same. So far there is no comment on there about the Stryker 5th.

http://www.sebastianjunger.com/main/...sg_wel_network
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  #107  
Old 27.09.2010, 19:10
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Did anyone else see it?

There is a one day hearing today at Fort Washington to see if thisshuld go to court martial or not. Gibson's attorney though has threatened though that this goes much higher and if these soldiers are accused he will expose those higher up. Some of the attorneys have the sporting trophy photos and the court has asked that these be returned as they are evidence,
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  #108  
Old 21.03.2011, 18:51
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Alright: The trial is still ongoing - obviously not publicly. According to the media did not even the defence lawyers get access to the files... but somehow did some of the photos surface at Spiegel, probably the best magazine in Germany and one of the few that cooperates with wikileaks and other whistleblowers tightly.

They published pictures showing US soldiers posing with dead bodies of Afghan locals. According to the claims are these bodies simply farmers the "kill team" shot for nothing but "fun".

The pictures are quite drastic, so I will not include them here, only click the link if you want to:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...cke-65976.html
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  #109  
Old 21.03.2011, 19:32
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Thanks for keeping us informed and not showing the photos but providing the link.I won't view them
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Alright: The trial is still ongoing - obviously not publicly. According to the media did not even the defence lawyers get access to the files... but somehow did some of the photos surface at Spiegel, probably the best magazine in Germany and one of the few that cooperates with wikileaks and other whistleblowers tightly.

They published pictures showing US soldiers posing with dead bodies of Afghan locals. According to the claims are these bodies simply farmers the "kill team" shot for nothing but "fun".

The pictures are quite drastic, so I will not include them here, only click the link if you want to:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...cke-65976.html
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  #110  
Old 21.03.2011, 20:02
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Who funds the Taliban? I believe it to be Saudia Arabia, the same country with whom we have just promised to provide a massive arms deal. It hasn't gone through yet
Of course without the Saudi funding, they wouldn't even exist....But an better question to ask is... who created them int he first place? and why? I guess you all know the answer... so I'll just leave it at that.

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ofcourse they are uncapable to give justice when it is about specific people; have you ever read about doctor Afia Siddiqui its a shame on you and your system, why did they attack Iraq ? do you have had any trial for fake reports for weapons of mass destruction, who was responsible for murdering hundred thousand of innocent people for sake of your OIL NEEDS ?
Tbh, I could care less about one person when there are hundreds dying every single day in the same country.....I don't understand why we seem to care so much about the over-hyped, politically motivated cases? Take the case of Raymond Davis for example, there's an outburst of protests all over Pakistan for the killing of two people..... but no eyebrows are raised when 70 innocent people including women and children are killed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8619716.stm
Or just recently, when 40 innocent tribesmen are killed... and what is the outcome? Well, here you go you've created another bunch of "terrorist":
http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/19/n-waz...inst-us-2.html

I see some people mentioned 9/11.... but what I fail to understand is..how many of the attackers in 9/11 were of Afghan origin or even trained in Afghanistan?

EDIT:
As for the soldiers, at least they are being tried? Goes on to show at least they give a damn about these killings....There were videos of extra-judicial killings conducted by Pakistani Army itself... I wonder what happened to that inquiry?
EDIT2:
And I just noticed, its an old thread... sorry for rant

Last edited by Faheem; 21.03.2011 at 20:14.
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  #111  
Old 22.03.2011, 14:13
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Of course without the Saudi funding, they wouldn't even exist....But an better question to ask is... who created them int he first place? and why? I guess you all know the answer... so I'll just leave it at that.


Tbh, I could care less about one person when there are hundreds dying every single day in the same country.....I don't understand why we seem to care so much about the over-hyped, politically motivated cases? Take the case of Raymond Davis for example, there's an outburst of protests all over Pakistan for the killing of two people..... but no eyebrows are raised when 70 innocent people including women and children are killed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8619716.stm
Or just recently, when 40 innocent tribesmen are killed... and what is the outcome? Well, here you go you've created another bunch of "terrorist":
http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/19/n-waz...inst-us-2.html

I see some people mentioned 9/11.... but what I fail to understand is..how many of the attackers in 9/11 were of Afghan origin or even trained in Afghanistan?

EDIT:
As for the soldiers, at least they are being tried? Goes on to show at least they give a damn about these killings....There were videos of extra-judicial killings conducted by Pakistani Army itself... I wonder what happened to that inquiry?
EDIT2:
And I just noticed, its an old thread... sorry for rant
Why apologize when you are right? People like Treverus are just making sure that this doesn't get brushed under the carpet unnoticed.
I am very pro American but it doesn't mean that I don't criticize. I am happy to livein a country where I can.
I do wonder sometimes why the Afghani people don't turn on the Al Qaeda or Taleban in greater numbers. I suppose that it goes back to when the Russian withdrew and the US didn't do much to help with the rebuilding of infrastructure. Perhaps the Afghani people believe that the US will leave and the Taleban will regain their hold. In hindsight I think that it would have been better to leave the Russian infrastructure in place and not to have got involved. The USSR would have fallen anyway.
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  #112  
Old 22.03.2011, 14:25
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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People like Treverus are just making sure that this doesn't get brushed under the carpet unnoticed.
I do not post this because of any pro- or anti-American feelings. I just think that crimes have a quality and a quantity component... this case is hyped for a fairly good reasons: Even the famous helicopter case was somehow in a grey area - there were soldiers in a dangerous area fighting and at least once first shot and then looked what they shot at. Here it is different: The guys want to kill humans - not enemies - and go out and "hunt" innocent civilians. This is so off the chart that I think it is important to look at it and wonder what the wars turn the many young men into who have to go again and again into Iraq or Afghanistan.

The Davis case is similarly extreme: We, as civilization, have found some rules how to treat each other and to prevent violence. We found out that more often than not it makes sense to talk about issues before shooting. So we invented "diplomacy" with a lot of funny rules attached to it. One is that even if you have problems with each other, you allow some messengers to ensure communication and promise to leave these messengers unharmed. That this status has been used for spying is nothing new at all - but to try to abuse the system as much as the US did in the Davis case is new: Smuggling in not some spy master, but an operative and claiming immunity for him being some low level technician in the embassy is simply absurd. He went nuts and shot some agents that were observing him - shit happens. But the way the US rushed in killing another one in the proces (by running him over with a armoured car) shows simply to drastically what value a Pakistani life has for them. I would be outraged as well if it happened in Zurich - no matter what embassy does so... Authors like Ludlum would never come up with so a bad story...
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  #113  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:00
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Why apologize when you are right? People like Treverus are just making sure that this doesn't get brushed under the carpet unnoticed.
I am very pro American but it doesn't mean that I don't criticize. I am happy to livein a country where I can.
I do wonder sometimes why the Afghani people don't turn on the Al Qaeda or Taleban in greater numbers. I suppose that it goes back to when the Russian withdrew and the US didn't do much to help with the rebuilding of infrastructure. Perhaps the Afghani people believe that the US will leave and the Taleban will regain their hold. In hindsight I think that it would have been better to leave the Russian infrastructure in place and not to have got involved. The USSR would have fallen anyway.
Well believe it or not.. the Afghans support American military presence and the war against Taliban, because they want to go back to the way they were in the old days before the USSR invasion and all (if you go back to 1978 the GDP of Afghanistan was $218.35 per capita... just below that of pakistan at $228.51 and much better than most other countries in the subcontinent including India).
There are a number of reason why the Taliban are so strong and to be honest... the Afghans are doing all they can with whatever resources they have got... hence you see the number of Afghan Army personnel rising so quickly.. people are tired of war but the world just wouldn't give them peace. I could go on and write a book on the matter.. but I'll give you my personal views on the matter (having been born and raised in a Pashtoon society).

One of the biggest mistake the United States made was that they did not disarm the heavily armed and highly trained Taliban force...Since the Taliban were mostly Pakistan origin (at least the leadership was) and were trained and controlled by Pakistani intelligence, here was the perfect opportunity for Pakistan to gain influence in Afghanistan... even better control it through a proxy force (I should probably mention here that Pakistan and Afghanistan have been.... kind of enemies historically)...So that is what Pakistan did! encouraged the Taliban to go on and take over as much as they could. Even to this day the Afghan Talibans and the Haqani network are under the control of Pakistan's ISI... because it still wants some share in any future Afghan government...so it won't feel threatened at any point in the future. Mind you Pakistani Army is not fighting the Afghan Talibans... they are fighting another version of the Taliban called the Pakistani Talibans... hence you see the US drones attacking these Afghan Talibans - not a good strategy tbh because the collateral damage creates more Taliban than it kills.

To cut it short... there could be no peace in Afghanistan unless Pakistan and the Saudis are willing to stop their support of the Afghan Talibans.... or at least it will take quite long (I know many of my fellow Pakistanis would groan at me for this... but that is the bitter truth).... oh and the Saudis support is based on the fact you have Iran next to it and we all know how much Iran and Saudi Arabia love each other.

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The guys want to kill humans - not enemies - and go out and "hunt" innocent civilians. This is so off the chart that I think it is important to look at it and wonder what the wars turn the many young men into who have to go again and again into Iraq or Afghanistan.
This is one of the main reason for the declining support for the US and allied forces' operations and Afghan Army personnel turning rogue. It is sad to see how on the one hand we make movies about psychopaths being tracked and killed and on the other hand... the same psychopaths are being enrolled in the Army, giving them the perfect opportunity to play their game.

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The Davis case is similarly extreme: We, as civilization, have found some rules how to treat each other and to .....
The was just a case of ISI trying to regain control of US presence in Pakistan....sending two poor chaps to get killed so they can make an international scene and control US/CIA presence in the country... and I think they have successfully achieved their goals.... I don't think any US personnel would roam around without ISI's knowledge anymore.

Don't get me wrong when I say all these things about Pakistan... I love the country... I too someday want to see peace there and everywhere else, I just hate the corrupt establishment.. including the Army and ISI.

Disclaimer: Whatever I wrote above represents my personal view of the situation... and I could be wrong (but I know I'm not).

Last edited by Faheem; 22.03.2011 at 16:02. Reason: typos.
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  #114  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:08
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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This is one of the main reason for the declining support for the US and allied forces' operations and Afghan Army personnel turning rogue. It is sad to see how on the one hand we make movies about psychopaths being tracked and killed and on the other hand... the same psychopaths are being enrolled in the Army, giving them the perfect opportunity to play their game.
Are psychopaths enrolled or made? If it is enrolled, it should be possible to tighten the controls. But if the case is even only partially a result of years of service in the new style of warfare we have today... well, THAT's what makes the case so important - how could this happen and how can it be prevented?

On the ISI: If you are a US spy walking around in a foreign country, I would expect that it is nothing but normal that you are observed by the local services - especially if your cover is "I work for the embassy". So "I was followed" is not really an excuse to gun down two men.
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  #115  
Old 25.03.2011, 16:08
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Kill Team of US soldiers killing Afghan civilians for fun

have you heard about this? is there a thread already up? couldnt find any on last 6 pages i have checked...



just thought about the discussion we had the other day on "proud to be british and not swiss"-thread.

hows the proud thing looked at now, given that they killed Afhan civilians for fun, 4000 pieces of diverse media was confiscated from US army soldiers, part of the kill team? for me the whole thing went already wrong in the training camp back in the US. being drilled all day with "kill, kill, kill!" can only lead to such very bad incidents, no?
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  #116  
Old 25.03.2011, 16:12
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

hahaha, it was the first thread on the page, darn...anyway...
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  #117  
Old 25.03.2011, 16:19
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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hahaha, it was the first thread on the page, darn...anyway...
Umm.. I merged the threads
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  #118  
Old 25.03.2011, 16:45
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Re: Kill Team of US soldiers killing Afghan civilians for fun

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for me the whole thing went already wrong in the training camp back in the US. being drilled all day with "kill, kill, kill!" can only lead to such very bad incidents, no?
No. I believe there are in every organisation group dynamics and in something that has to be as strictly organized as an army, they are always a bit like "the wave" (the novel). What happened here is in principle the same as what the German soldiers are doing when they pose with human bones or paint palm trees on their vehicles in Afghanistan (the insignia of the Nazi German Afrika Korps). You do not even need a war for it - last week there was a discussion in the international news on a video showing how the Philipines trained their special forces by beating them... and there are similar cases all over the world. (No, I will again not link it, but you can find it pretty easily...)

What is special about this case is how far it went and that there was aparently a sociopath put in command of a unit - while I guess that only training and war made him what he is today, I would expect him to have some tendencies from the start - otherwise the entire army would be fully of them. One would expect the US to choose their soldier better, but I guess they do not really have that much to choose from nowadays: Demand for soldiers is high, supply not so much.
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  #119  
Old 25.03.2011, 17:38
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Re: Kill Team of US soldiers killing Afghan civilians for fun

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No. I believe there are in every organisation group dynamics and in something that has to be as strictly organized as an army, they are always a bit like "the wave" (the novel). What happened here is in principle the same as what the German soldiers are doing when they pose with human bones or paint palm trees on their vehicles in Afghanistan (the insignia of the Nazi German Afrika Korps). You do not even need a war for it - last week there was a discussion in the international news on a video showing how the Philipines trained their special forces by beating them... and there are similar cases all over the world. (No, I will again not link it, but you can find it pretty easily...)

What is special about this case is how far it went and that there was aparently a sociopath put in command of a unit - while I guess that only training and war made him what he is today, I would expect him to have some tendencies from the start - otherwise the entire army would be fully of them. One would expect the US to choose their soldier better, but I guess they do not really have that much to choose from nowadays: Demand for soldiers is high, supply not so much.
right, makes perfectly sense. though i think the whole drill-thing is OTT.
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  #120  
Old 29.03.2011, 16:58
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

The "rolling stone" has published some more photos:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...hotos-20110327
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