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Old 09.09.2010, 01:39
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Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

No doubt they will blame it on war stress

US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies'


Soldiers face trial over secret 'kill team' which allegedly murdered at random and collected fingers as trophies of war

Chris McGreal in Washington
The Guardian, Thursday 9 September 2010


Andrew Holmes, Michael Wagnon, Jeremy Morlock and Adam Winfield are four of the five Stryker soldiers who face murder charges. Photograph: Public Domain

Twelve American soldiers face trial over an secret "kill team" that allegedly blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.
Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering three Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven other soldiers are accused of covering up the killings as well as a violent assault on a new recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians.
In one of the most serious accusations of war crimes to emerge from the Afghan conflict, the killings are alleged to have been carried out by members of a Stryker infantry brigade based in Kandahar province. According to investigators and legal documents, discussion of killing Afghan civilians began after the arrival of Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs at forward operating base Ramrod last November Other soldiers later told the army's criminal investigation command that Gibbs boasted of the things he got away with while serving in Iraq and before long was remarking on how easy it would be to "toss a grenade at someone and kill them".

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Old 09.09.2010, 08:33
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Being totally against Death penalty, I catch myself dreaming about it when I see cases like that...
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Old 09.09.2010, 08:39
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Soldiers face trial...
There we go: they've been caught, they're going to trial.

What are we discussing here?
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Old 09.09.2010, 08:45
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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There we go: they've been caught, they're going to trial.

What are we discussing here?
do I detect a pro-american tone in this message ? Where did that come from ?
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Old 09.09.2010, 08:47
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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do I detect a pro-american tone in this message ? Where did that come from ?
Eh? I don't understand.
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Old 09.09.2010, 08:55
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

You're displaying a lot of faith in the american justice system Wasn't something similar going on with this Blackwater security company which was not punished ?
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Old 09.09.2010, 09:00
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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No doubt they will blame it on war stress
Well, it's been a bit since I've "earned" some groans and red blobs soooo...


While I think such things are possible from "war stress" or whatever, I think it is more a psychopathic individual put into a position of power (the SSgt in question) and influence over suggestible youngins.

(Here is the part I "expect" some groans / red blobs over...)
I think that people in general but especially young people and even more specifically young men in groups like that (be it military squad or "gang" or even team sports) tend to develop a pack mentality and fail to see anything outside what the pack leader suggests. I think young men in those situations are very prone to "blindly" following a charismatic leader who knows how to prey upon "secret" desires or prejudices and influence them into doing things they'd otherwise know to be wrong.


Anyhow...
I can imagine that a few of the "top" guys in the group (especially the SSgt) will get some serious punishment but some of the others (younger, weaker or both) will wind up with something more akin to counseling than "punishment" beyond court martial.
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Old 09.09.2010, 09:00
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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You're displaying a lot of faith in the american justice system
Am I? Is it any worse (or better) than that of any other country?

Anyway, that is beside the point, which is that every few days we are invited to feel outrage about matters which are already in hand and that we can do nothing about purely so we can feel righteously angry. One day it's some mad bint throwing a cat in a bin. Then it's some aggressive copper beating up a drunk driver. Now it's some stupid soldiers acting like morons and savages.

So what are we supposed to do about it? They've been caught, they're facing trial. There we go.

It's anger porn, is what it is, and it's pointless.

Anyway, I'm off to sing God Bless America and eat some apple pie...
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Old 09.09.2010, 09:03
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Hum..... Apple pie!

Sigh! Thanks Dougal for my new craving!
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Old 09.09.2010, 09:11
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

I think people need to know that these guys represent the USA and are killing in the name of US people.
I think people who plan to burn Koran, should have a look before at their own herd.
I think people need to know, that the US does not recognize any international court for its army members.
I think people need to know that everyone deserves justice and a human treatment.
I think people need to know that afghans are not animals.
I think people need to know that our capacity of indignation is our last resort to differentiate from those inhuman criminals, and feel like humans.
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Old 09.09.2010, 09:18
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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do I detect a pro-american tone in this message ? Where did that come from ?
Try here.

I just got an email today from a serving officer (British) currently on duty in Afghanistan. Another couple of soldiers killed. One of whom had been promoted to an acting rank. His widow and orphans will only get the pension of this previous rank, because the rule is you have to have held the rank for a year to get the pension of that rank. But the rule is there to stop people being promoted, then leaving the army (while still alive) and getting the higher pension.

That seems a tad unfair.

Sorry for the mild OT.
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Old 09.09.2010, 10:11
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Well, it's been a bit since I've "earned" some groans and red blobs soooo...


While I think such things are possible from "war stress" or whatever, I think it is more a psychopathic individual put into a position of power (the SSgt in question) and influence over suggestible youngins.

(Here is the part I "expect" some groans / red blobs over...)
I think that people in general but especially young people and even more specifically young men in groups like that (be it military squad or "gang" or even team sports) tend to develop a pack mentality and fail to see anything outside what the pack leader suggests. I think young men in those situations are very prone to "blindly" following a charismatic leader who knows how to prey upon "secret" desires or prejudices and influence them into doing things they'd otherwise know to be wrong.


Anyhow...
I can imagine that a few of the "top" guys in the group (especially the SSgt) will get some serious punishment but some of the others (younger, weaker or both) will wind up with something more akin to counseling than "punishment" beyond court martial.
I may have to join you collecting groans but here are my two Rappen.
When you think what soldiers do for a living I am amazed every time somebody screams "muuurder" like a cartoon elephant in a tutu at a mouse when some soldiers do their thing.
Wars are made with people not with technology, we can kill each other with satellite based phaser beams or just use a rock.
You take what is at hand.
A lot of the soldiers are from blue collar families, after school their choices range between shelf stocker, Mc Donald's or the army.
The "Army of one" is portrayed as a ego-shooter by New York advertising pro's (who would not know a gun from a hairdryer)
As always the enemy is de-humanized before GI Joe goes to war; "Ragheads" "goat….rs" portrayed as primitives too cowardly to fight proper.
It is hate speak clear and simple and in warfare that is the norm.
So! Gunner Asch (showing my age here) goes to Afghanistan and on his first patrol a IED goes off and rips his buddy to gooey mush.
As a consequence Asch wants to kill "the Ragheaded buggers" maim, torture and rip and render apart.
He wants his side to win by any means and above all he wants to stamp the enemy unsharpened into the ground, he wants revenge.
Revenge for his buddy, for 9.11 for the bad grades at school the missed date with Peggy Sue who knows.
And now he is at war and will do what every ape with a gun will do, that is the way it works, let us stop being surprised.
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Old 09.09.2010, 11:11
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I may have to join you collecting groans but here are my two Rappen.
When you think what soldiers do for a living I am amazed every time somebody screams "muuurder" like a cartoon elephant in a tutu at a mouse when some soldiers do their thing.
Wars are made with people not with technology, we can kill each other with satellite based phaser beams or just use a rock.
You take what is at hand.
A lot of the soldiers are from blue collar families, after school their choices range between shelf stocker, Mc Donald's or the army.
The "Army of one" is portrayed as a ego-shooter by New York advertising pro's (who would not know a gun from a hairdryer)
As always the enemy is de-humanized before GI Joe goes to war; "Ragheads" "goat….rs" portrayed as primitives too cowardly to fight proper.
It is hate speak clear and simple and in warfare that is the norm.
So! Gunner Asch (showing my age here) goes to Afghanistan and on his first patrol a IED goes off and rips his buddy to gooey mush.
As a consequence Asch wants to kill "the Ragheaded buggers" maim, torture and rip and render apart.
He wants his side to win by any means and above all he wants to stamp the enemy unsharpened into the ground, he wants revenge.
Revenge for his buddy, for 9.11 for the bad grades at school the missed date with Peggy Sue who knows.
And now he is at war and will do what every ape with a gun will do, that is the way it works, let us stop being surprised.
Could have said it better myself.
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Old 09.09.2010, 11:37
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I may have to join you collecting groans but here are my two Rappen.
When you think what soldiers do for a living I am amazed every time somebody screams "muuurder" like a cartoon elephant in a tutu at a mouse when some soldiers do their thing.
Wars are made with people not with technology, we can kill each other with satellite based phaser beams or just use a rock.
You take what is at hand.
A lot of the soldiers are from blue collar families, after school their choices range between shelf stocker, Mc Donald's or the army.
The "Army of one" is portrayed as a ego-shooter by New York advertising pro's (who would not know a gun from a hairdryer)
As always the enemy is de-humanized before GI Joe goes to war; "Ragheads" "goat….rs" portrayed as primitives too cowardly to fight proper.
It is hate speak clear and simple and in warfare that is the norm.
So! Gunner Asch (showing my age here) goes to Afghanistan and on his first patrol a IED goes off and rips his buddy to gooey mush.
As a consequence Asch wants to kill "the Ragheaded buggers" maim, torture and rip and render apart.
He wants his side to win by any means and above all he wants to stamp the enemy unsharpened into the ground, he wants revenge.
Revenge for his buddy, for 9.11 for the bad grades at school the missed date with Peggy Sue who knows.
And now he is at war and will do what every ape with a gun will do, that is the way it works, let us stop being surprised.
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Could have said it better myself.
Go on then!
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Old 09.09.2010, 11:41
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Try here.

I just got an email today from a serving officer (British) currently on duty in Afghanistan. Another couple of soldiers killed. One of whom had been promoted to an acting rank. His widow and orphans will only get the pension of this previous rank, because the rule is you have to have held the rank for a year to get the pension of that rank. But the rule is there to stop people being promoted, then leaving the army (while still alive) and getting the higher pension.

That seems a tad unfair.

Sorry for the mild OT.
It's been that way for ever.

By the way, it only applies to non-commissioned officers.

Commissioned officers get it immediately: no time in rank etc etc

If you're a flag officer (senior commissioned officer) then it (used to be) traditional to get promoted on your last day of service to get the higher pension.
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Old 09.09.2010, 11:42
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

Well I'll take these posts from the news rather than posts on obvious topics such as do single men like single mothers or what do you think of an unfaithful partner.
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Old 09.09.2010, 11:57
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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I may have to join you collecting groans but here are my two Rappen.
When you think what soldiers do for a living I am amazed every time somebody screams "muuurder" like a cartoon elephant in a tutu at a mouse when some soldiers do their thing.
Wars are made with people not with technology, we can kill each other with satellite based phaser beams or just use a rock.
You take what is at hand.
A lot of the soldiers are from blue collar families, after school their choices range between shelf stocker, Mc Donald's or the army.
The "Army of one" is portrayed as a ego-shooter by New York advertising pro's (who would not know a gun from a hairdryer)
As always the enemy is de-humanized before GI Joe goes to war; "Ragheads" "goat….rs" portrayed as primitives too cowardly to fight proper.
It is hate speak clear and simple and in warfare that is the norm.
So! Gunner Asch (showing my age here) goes to Afghanistan and on his first patrol a IED goes off and rips his buddy to gooey mush.
As a consequence Asch wants to kill "the Ragheaded buggers" maim, torture and rip and render apart.
He wants his side to win by any means and above all he wants to stamp the enemy unsharpened into the ground, he wants revenge.
Revenge for his buddy, for 9.11 for the bad grades at school the missed date with Peggy Sue who knows.
And now he is at war and will do what every ape with a gun will do, that is the way it works, let us stop being surprised.
the same speech can be applied by replacing soldier by terrorist....and then at the end no one should be surprised to see 2 towers collapsing.
I disagree on that. There is morally and legally acceptable violence and there is crime. That's the difference between an army of a democratic state and mercenary or terrorists. The news provided by OP shows how they crossed the thin border between moral and illegal violence and this is not acceptable for a democratic country. One can understand it but not accept it.
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Old 09.09.2010, 13:32
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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the same speech can be applied by replacing soldier by terrorist....and then at the end no one should be surprised to see 2 towers collapsing.
I disagree on that. There is morally and legally acceptable violence and there is crime. That's the difference between an army of a democratic state and mercenary or terrorists. The news provided by OP shows how they crossed the thin border between moral and illegal violence and this is not acceptable for a democratic country. One can understand it but not accept it.
A very, very thin line indeed.
Interesting slant, are you suggesting that an armed force under democratic commend has the moral upperhand? You can always spot the moral victor he is the one on the ground bleeding. Sometimes I get the impression that the worst enemy of a "civilized" army is a democracy, too many people who abhor violence and who have never read SunTsu trying to exert control over a institution that relies on conflict, needs conflict to justify their very existence.

The definition of terrorist is somewhat vague as well these days. Who is the terrorist in Afghanistan? More civilians have died in Afghanistan through allied bombing since 9.11 then died in the towers. Where is the world wide outcry there? "Just a bunch of Orcs, got in the way, deal with it."
Dead men, woman and children, collateral as they say, trying to make it sound cute.
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Old 09.09.2010, 13:45
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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...The definition of terrorist is somewhat vague as well these days. Who is the terrorist in Afghanistan? More civilians have died in Afghanistan through allied bombing since 9.11 then died in the towers. ....
Al Qaeda have killed
- more muslims than they have westerners
- more muslims than western bombing

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..."Where is the world wide outcry there?"....
?

Don't pick and choose statistics.
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Old 09.09.2010, 15:38
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Re: Renegade soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport'

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Al Qaeda have killed
- more muslims than they have westerners
- more muslims than western bombing



?

Don't pick and choose statistics.
True, but I was not thinking on lines of religion but as a whole, the bad guys are always the others are the "terrorists" In Afghanistan and other places on this rock "they" think that "our" lot are the terrorists and need to be destroyed, only they do not have planes and tanks and stat based intel they have something far better "ideology" a fanatic mindset and a total disregard for life, of course backed with RPG's and home-made explosives.

I did not pick my statistics, world wide outcry seems very selective these days and I think that without a few maverick reporters the news from the embedded reporters would be very one sided.
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