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  #181  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:06
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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FAIL

Did I told you that you were a troll?
You called me many things, none of them true. I would appreciate it if you would stay on topic and post productive posts.

GW didn't calls Muslims "scum", Mr. Vertigo did - and you are on Vertigo's side ?
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  #182  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:23
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Oh dear... I can see where this thread is heading.

The choice of the word "scum" was an unfortunate one. I understand what Mr Vertigo was saying, but I disagree that undereducated, poor people from the mountains are "scum". I also disagree that religious fundamentalists are "scum". Moreoever, I disagree that those who use religion to justify and cover their base actions are "scum". Nor, for that matter, are those politicians who use the genuine fears of indigenous Europeans to justify their nasty opinions "scum". Nobody is "scum". Everyone is a human being, and deserves respect for that reason alone. Their thoughts, words and deeds are a whole other matter entirely.

But that was the point I tried to raise in my Mashwood Heath story earlier. The Muslims who are moving into longstanding European urban and suburban communities, bringing all kinds of unpleasant and uncomfortable changes to the indigenous inhabitants aren't doing it because they are "scum". They are doing it because they are human. They are doing it because, after having worked 60 hour weeks in the shop, or the factory, or the office, they want to go home to a decent sized semi detached house with some trees nearby. They are not hanging round the mosque because they are "scum". They are doing it because that's where their community is, where their friends are, where they find fellowship in an unwelcoming country. They are not terrifying old ladies by wearing burqas because they are "scum". They are doing it because they believe that modest dress of that nature is what befits a good Muslim woman. They are not refusing to apologise for walking into people because they are "scum". They are doing it because they just moved from Pakistan or Algeria or Afghanistan a year ago, have a three month child to look after, and simply haven't had the time to learn enough English or French or German to say "excuse me".

Of course, none of this helps the indigenous population who just see these strange, rude, dirty people moving into their area. They understand nothing of the motivations, needs, wants, hopes and fears of these people. Nor do they particularly want to. Why should they? They didn't invite them to come and take over their community. They have enough concerns of their own.

But it would be helpful if we could move away from thinking of the immigrants as "ill-educated, brainwashed, fundamentalist peasant scum" and of the indigenous population as "racist, selfish post-colonial white trash".

They are people. All of them.

Even Geert Wilders.
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  #183  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:24
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You called me many things, none of them true. I would appreciate it if you would stay on topic and post productive posts.

GW didn't calls Muslims "scum", Mr. Vertigo did - and you are on Vertigo's side ?
No you are a Troll, look what is your contribution so far on the last few pages. You are arguing on name calling and try to bring this thread Off Topic.

I am not on any side but I try hard to educate people on this anti-muslim over reactions.
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  #184  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Very very goo speech
Amen Brother, Amen!
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  #185  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:37
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I am not on any side but I try hard to educate people on this anti-muslim over reactions.
You obviously failed with Mr. Vertigo who is more anti-Muslim than GW, the topic of this thread.

Immigrants - taking DB's example one step further. In the Early 90s about 1,000,000 people emigrated to Israel from the former USSR. Even though assimilation was very successful, and the incomers are better educated than the receiving population there is still friction - people just don't like it when their neighborhood demographics change.

Europe is facing a serious immigration problem, The answers offered are either not nice or not realistic.
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  #186  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:59
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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They are people. All of them.

Even Geert Wilders.
Absolutely. The problem is that people are all the same... under each of our "enlightened" culture remains a primate and we do have a lot of "tribe" behaviour in us, all of us. If you do not believe me, go watch a football game in a stadium.

The difference is that we learned to control some fundamental agressive behaviour quite well... some do so better, others worse. The worst are unfortunately Muslim terrorists, the type that as of today threaten the population of the Netherlands with attacks if they support Wilders... I foresee that this has a lot of negative repercussions on any Muslim who actually does not live in a cave in Afghanistan, but the Netherlands...

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/...story/17082153
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  #187  
Old 18.10.2010, 15:53
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

To make things clear: I used "scum" for those radical muslims and extremists who do not accept western values but come to europe to propagate the hate speeches in mosques or in some districts. I used "scum" for those that have no alternative than war and "violent jihad" to propose to the majority of muslims living in europe. I used "scum" for those who are ready to export violence to europe. Enough said.
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  #188  
Old 18.10.2010, 15:59
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

By the way, those muslims terrorists kill much more muslims than any other group of people...

Their very first victims are those from the same religion. You should think about this and how to protect them instead to want to get the good ones out.
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  #189  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:04
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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To make things clear: I used "scum" for those radical muslims and extremists who do not accept western values but come to europe to propagate the hate speeches in mosques or in some districts. I used "scum" for those that have no alternative than war and "violent jihad" to propose to the majority of muslims living in europe. I used "scum" for those who are ready to export violence to europe. Enough said.

I understand that.

But I disagree with you.

They are people who say and do wicked things. But they are still people.

Describing people as "scum" is the first step to dehumanising them, and that rarely ends well.
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  #190  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:11
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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To make things clear: I used "scum" for those radical muslims and extremists who do not accept western values but come to europe to propagate the hate speeches in mosques or in some districts. I used "scum" for those that have no alternative than war and "violent jihad" to propose to the majority of muslims living in europe. I used "scum" for those who are ready to export violence to europe. Enough said.
What you said was (no editing) :
"The muslims that are settling here are not among the educated people even in their home countries. They are not part of some social elite. So what we get here is the scum."

You then accused me of thinking the same way as you.
Forum readers can make up their own mind about what you said.

Wouldn't it be simpler to apologize ?

DB: Mass murderers are people, Rapists are people, People who get on the train before people can get off it are people : surely they deserve some dehumanization ?
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  #191  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:20
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I understand that.

But I disagree with you.

They are people who say and do wicked things. But they are still people.

Describing people as "scum" is the first step to dehumanising them, and that rarely ends well.
The "person" who cut off her nose and ears isnīt scum?
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  #192  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:23
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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DB: Mass murderers are people, Rapists are people, People who get on the train before people can get off it are people : surely they deserve some dehumanization ?
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The "person" who cut off her nose and ears isnīt scum?
Nobody deserves dehumanisation, and nobody is "scum".

If someone commits a criminal act, then they must be dealt with according to the requirements of the law.

But they are still people, and must be treated as such.

EDIT: Except, maybe, for the people on the train...
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  #193  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:36
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The "person" who cut off her nose and ears isnīt scum?
Can the person who did that be reduced to his religion? Do we not have domestic violence in any other culture as well?


Simple truth is:
1. Wilders says that Islam is by definition aggressive and brings a lot of quotes from the Koran which he wants to outlaw.
2. The Koran is based on the same stories as the Bible and the Thora - you will find exactly the same "eye for an eye" logic in both - with equally aggressive texts.
3. There are aggressive Muslims, there are Muslim terrorists and a whole lot of non-Muslim nutcases on this planet.
4. The number of Muslims in Europe is rising fast and while the vast majority does not do or say anything close to the extremists shown in the Wilders film, do many ask for things that do collide with "our" culture - they have problems with coeducation, swimming lessons for girls, equal rights... and in some places the demands for sharia get louder. Many non-Muslims have problems with these demands including me.

Wilders makes claims for causal connections that are VERY questionable and rides on a wave of deep distrust towards Muslims which was locally fuelled by the van Gogh murder. Does he spread hatred - most probably. Does he do it in an unlawful way according to Dutch law - most probably not.

I do not really understand why each and every thread on the topic - while being a difficult one - has to end up in the same trainwreck... but maybe my expectations are simply to high. Ah, wait: Aren't you our WWF-tiger-thread-OP? Believe me: This topic is even far more complex than the poor tigers situation...
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  #194  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:39
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Can the person who did that be reduced to his religion? Do we not have domestic violence in any other culture as well?


Simple truth is:
1. Wilders says that Islam is by definition aggressive and brings a lot of quotes from the Koran which he wants to outlaw.
2. The Koran is based on the same stories as the Bible and the Thora - you will find exactly the same "eye for an eye" logic in both - with equally aggressive texts.
3. There are aggressive Muslims, there are Muslim terrorists and a whole lot of non-Muslim nutcases on this planet.
4. The number of Muslims in Europe is rising fast and while the vast majority does not do or say anything close to the extremists shown in the Wilders film, do many ask for things that do collide with "our" culture - they have problems with coeducation, swimming lessons for girls, equal rights... and in some places the demands for sharia get louder. Many non-Muslims have problems with these demands including me.

Wilders makes claims for causal connections that are VERY questionable and rides on a wave of deep distrust towards Muslims which was locally fuelled by the van Gogh murder. Does he spread hatred - most probably. Does he do it in an unlawful way according to Dutch law - most probably not.

I do not really understand why each and every thread on the topic - while being a difficult one - has to end up in the same trainwreck... but maybe my expectations are simply to high. Ah, wait: Aren't you our WWF-tiger-thread-OP? Believe me: This topic is even far more complex than the poor tigers faith...
Yes, I am.

It was a simple question, though, I asked isnīt a person who did that scum. No other explanations needed really.
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  #195  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:48
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The "person" who cut off her nose and ears isnīt scum?




Beside looking for sensationalism, did you learn something Lana?
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  #196  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:49
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Yes, I am.

It was a simple question, though, I asked isnīt a person who did that scum. No other explanations needed really.
Sorry, but you asked it in a context. The context is in this case a discussion on a Dutch MP spreading hate. His agenda is to demonize Islam. And you come up with a picture of a woman that was mistreated by here Muslim husband. Not just like that, but with a quote from DB where he basically said that MrVertigos remark that Muslim immigrants are scum is wrong... but anyway.

So in short: You did not ask a simple and short question, your post was highly manipulative and is frankly wrong in this context for many reasons. A taleban guy in Afghanistan is by far not the same as an average Muslim in the Netherlands... but you are either not able to see this or too opinionated to care.
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  #197  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:50
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Wilders makes claims for causal connections that are VERY questionable and rides on a wave of deep distrust towards Muslims which was locally fuelled by the van Gogh murder. Does he spread hatred - most probably. Does he do it in an unlawful way according to Dutch law - most probably not.

I do not really understand why each and every thread on the topic - while being a difficult one - has to end up in the same trainwreck... but maybe my expectations are simply to high.
Certainly, but how many are we to actually being able to discuss Wilders in Dutch politics? People draw parallels and the discussion goes off just because we are very few here to have a direct connection to the Netherlands and who followed political happenings there. That is the nature of the forum: analogy leads to other related topics, leading to somehow less related topics, leading to the usual main leitmotivs of discussions here.

The Openbaar ministerie (general atorney? = state) actually demanded to let Wilders free of charge. The "victims" had their word to say to the judges, but it did not really brought any light to what they accuse Wilders of. The NOS Nieuws website used those words to discribe the demands of the victims:

De benadeelde partijen leggen de rechtbank uit dat zij immateriële schade hebben geleden doordat Wilders het leefklimaat bederft met zijn uitspraken. Ze stellen dat zij en hun achterban zich gekwetst voelen en dat ze zijn aangetast in hun goede naam en eer.

(Bad translation just to help and make the point) The victims explained to the tribunal that they had immaterial dammages through the fact that Wilders worsens the life climate (atmosphere in society) with his declarations. They said that they felt upset and that they were touched in their good name and honor.

There is nothing to get holds on, just feelings in a political debates. Even the accusation (state) does not qualify those hurt feelings for discrimination or hatred. Wilders just has to sit and wait.
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  #198  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:53
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Can the person who did that be reduced to his religion? Do we not have domestic violence in any other culture as well?


Simple truth is:
1. Wilders says that Islam is by definition aggressive and brings a lot of quotes from the Koran which he wants to outlaw.
2. The Koran is based on the same stories as the Bible and the Thora - you will find exactly the same "eye for an eye" logic in both - with equally aggressive texts.
3. There are aggressive Muslims, there are Muslim terrorists and a whole lot of non-Muslim nutcases on this planet.
4. The number of Muslims in Europe is rising fast and while the vast majority does not do or say anything close to the extremists shown in the Wilders film, do many ask for things that do collide with "our" culture - they have problems with coeducation, swimming lessons for girls, equal rights... and in some places the demands for sharia get louder. Many non-Muslims have problems with these demands including me.

Wilders makes claims for causal connections that are VERY questionable and rides on a wave of deep distrust towards Muslims which was locally fuelled by the van Gogh murder. Does he spread hatred - most probably. Does he do it in an unlawful way according to Dutch law - most probably not.
I agree with almost all, except item 3.

Islamist terrorism is by far the most serious terror threat to the world - Nationalistic terror (IRA, ETA, FARC etc) come a very distant second.

The vast Majority of Muslims in Europe is not supporting terror (In Europe, at least) , but there is a (very?) small violent/violent friendly part of it which does.

How to defang them without alienating the majority is the big question.
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  #199  
Old 18.10.2010, 16:54
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Beside looking for sensationalism, did you learn something Lana?
Iīm not a reporter nor do I promote the Times.
Therefore sensationalism is really not my thing.
So, I guess I did learn something, I learned beating around the bush is a better way to go with some people.
Iīm just not one of them.
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  #200  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:00
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Islamist terrorism is by far the most serious terror threat to the world
Nah. Islamist terrorists are, by and large, useless. Given the fact that they consider the United States to be an enormous jar of potted Satan, they haven't achieved a single terror attack within its borders for nearly ten years.

They can only go for soft targets: Israel, which is just a wall away from their mortars; Istanbul, which is a big city full of perfectly innocent Muslims with whom they can blend in; London, which has seen worse than anything a few ragbag jihadis can put together...

500 year ago, Islamic armies were banging on the gates of important European cities. Now they can't even set fire to an airport without getting their heads stamped on by irritated Glaswegians.

They're bloody useless!

The demographic timebomb is one thing. Islamist terror something else completely. There might be cause to be concerned about the former, but the latter? I don't think so...
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