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Old 18.10.2010, 17:01
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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So, I guess I did learn something
... that Afghanistan isn't Holland, and that there are nasty men everywhere?
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  #202  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:02
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Nah. Islamist terrorists are, by and large, useless. Given the fact that they consider the United States to be an enormous jar of potted Satan, they haven't achieved a single terror attack within its borders for nearly ten years.

They can only go for soft targets: Israel, which is just a wall away from their mortars; Istanbul, which is a big city full of perfectly innocent Muslims with whom they can blend in; London, which has seen worse than anything a few ragbag jihadis can put together...

500 year ago, Islamic armies were banging on the gates of important European cities. Now they can't even set fire to an airport without getting their heads stamped on by irritated Glaswegians.

They're bloody useless!


The demographic timebomb is one thing. Islamist terror something else completely. There might be cause to be concerned about the former, but the latter? I don't think so...
I pray to God youīre right.
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  #203  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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... that Afghanistan isn't Holland, and that there are nasty men everywhere?
Yes, that is correct.
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  #204  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:06
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Islamist terrorism is by far the most serious terror threat to the world - Nationalistic terror (IRA, ETA, FARC etc) come a very distant second.
I can fully understand that you - as an Israeli - think this way - and while I usually do not agree to your rather obvious positions to the middle East at all would I probably behave exactly the same if I was affected.

The truth is that there are far more ways of "terror" than only some small criminal groups weather they are nationalistic, religious or for example politically extreme. I would say that far more people in the world have suffered from terror spread by states than by some of those small groups. This terror can range from death penalties for gays in Iran to frankly Palestinians for being surpressed by their military superior neighbours... you see - we will not agree in the end and I would prefer to keep this on topic- at least remotely.
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  #205  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:07
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Nah. Islamist terrorists are, by and large, useless. Given the fact that they consider the United States to be an enormous jar of potted Satan, they haven't achieved a single terror attack within its borders for nearly ten years.

They can only go for soft targets: Israel, which is just a wall away from their mortars; Istanbul, which is a big city full of perfectly innocent Muslims with whom they can blend in; London, which has seen worse than anything a few ragbag jihadis can put together...

500 year ago, Islamic armies were banging on the gates of important European cities. Now they can't even set fire to an airport without getting their heads stamped on by irritated Glaswegians.

They're bloody useless!

The demographic timebomb is one thing. Islamist terror something else completely. There might be cause to be concerned about the former, but the latter? I don't think so...
Im always reminded of Mad Cow Disease.

Variant CJD (vCJD) is not a nice way to go. Your brain melts basically over several months and you go from a normal happy go lucky person to a dribbling vegetable until you die.

Because it was in the UK where it was spotted there's a strong aversion (or rather was) to eating british beef. I remember teaching a bunch of students in ireland and we got talking about it and I asked them "how many of you wont eat british beef then ?", just under half put their hand up.

At that time, which was about 2002 I think, about 143 people had died from vCJD, in total, globally. In other words the perceived risk far outweighed the actual risk - thousands die in car accidents every year but it doesnt stop people driving.

Islamic Terrorists are big on the news as DB says, and have done a couple of bombings - yip de doo that'll teach the infidels - but if you put them against deaths from car crashes then Im afraid they just wouldnt stack up.

So there you go: if you drive a car, your risking more than you would from a terror attack, so your clearly very brave and they aren't very good. And if your behind the wheel, chances are you havent got vCJD either - bonus!
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  #206  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:15
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I can fully understand that you - as an Israeli - think this way - and while I usually do not agree to your rather obvious positions to the middle East at all would I probably behave exactly the same if I was affected.

The truth is that there are far more ways of "terror" than only some small criminal groups weather they are nationalistic, religious or for example politically extreme. I would say that far more people in the world have suffered from terror spread by states than by some of those small groups. This terror can range from death penalties for gays in Iran to frankly Palestinians for being surpressed by their military superior neighbours... you see - we will not agree in the end and I would prefer to keep this on topic- at least remotely.
I agree, taking this issue to world level is off topic.

can we agree that, in Europeat least, the highest terror threat come from Islamists ?
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  #207  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:17
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I agree, taking this issue to world level is off topic.

can we agree that, in Europeat least, the highest terror threat come from Islamists ?
The highest risk of death comes from car accidents I would guess. Or illness.

The highest risk of death from a terrorist group might come from Islamists. But even if it did, it would be neglible against the many other risks in life.

Example: worried about dying from a terrorist anthrax attack ? (http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html):

Killed by Car Accidents

Highway fatalities account for more than 94% of all transportation deaths. There were an estimated 6,289,000 car accidents in the US in 1999. There were about 3.4 million injuries and 41,611 people killed in auto accidents in 1999. The total number of people killed in highway crashes in 2001 was 42,116, compared to 41,945 in 2000. An average of 114 people die each day in car crashes in the U.S. more...and 1999 pdf... [PDF Document - 2.5M]
Killed by the Common Flu

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) estimates that 35 to 50 million Americans come down with the flu during each flu season.The CDC estimates that in the US more than 100,000 people are hospitalized and more than 20,000 people die from the flu and its complications every year.

The Bottom Line...

An Anthrax Epidemic?


Killed in car accidents42,116*
Killed by the common flu20,000*
Killed by murders15,517*
Killed in airline crashes (of 477m passenger trips)120 (1)
Killed by lightning strikes90*
Killed by Anthrax 5
(1) Annual average over 19 year period.
*Average annual totals in United States.
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  #208  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:20
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The Openbaar ministerie (general atorney? = state) actually demanded to let Wilders free of charge. The "victims" had their word to say to the judges, but it did not really brought any light to what they accuse Wilders of. The NOS Nieuws website used those words to discribe the demands of the victims:

De benadeelde partijen leggen de rechtbank uit dat zij immateriŽle schade hebben geleden doordat Wilders het leefklimaat bederft met zijn uitspraken. Ze stellen dat zij en hun achterban zich gekwetst voelen en dat ze zijn aangetast in hun goede naam en eer.

(Bad translation just to help and make the point) The victims explained to the tribunal that they had immaterial dammages through the fact that Wilders worsens the life climate (atmosphere in society) with his declarations. They said that they felt upset and that they were touched in their good name and honor.
Sorry to quote myself, but the thread is hard to follow as non-linear.

To add to that, NOS Nieuws also has an article where the advocates of the alleged victims are discribed as unclear and chaotic.

(In Dutch) http://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/politiek/...e_buiten_.html
In hun betogen, waarin ze duidelijk maakten dat hun cliŽnten zich slachtoffer voelen van Wilders, gingen Michiel Pestman, Ties Prakke, Nico Steijnen en Mohammed Enait verder dan de regels voor benadeelde partijen toestaan. Met name de laatste twee maakten het bont met betogen die nauwelijks waren te volgen en opmerkingen over de Ďkleine Hitlerí Wilders.
(Bad translation to help and make the point) In their declaration, in which they explained that their clients felt like victims of Wilders, MP, TP NS and ME crossed the line of what is allowed to the victims (in the procedure). Especially the last two went too far with declarations that were difficult to follow and remarks about the "little Hitler" Wilders.

The journalists start to doubt very much there is even a case to be written about. Media is more and more critical against the accusators as they failed to make their point and to convince that there is more than just political ideas they do not agree with. Media do not follow them on the juridical case, the case Wilders is widely seen as a political topic, not legal case.
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  #209  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:23
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I agree, taking this issue to world level is off topic.

can we agree that, in Europeat least, the highest terror threat come from Islamists ?
Let's agree that the glory days of communistic terror are aparently over... but as DB already said: Compared to for example the Baader-Meinhof group are those Islamists complete amateurs - from the tactics to the weapons, let alone being able to not get caught by the police... The IRA is not really active, so is ETA and the days of Carlos are long gone as well.

So my bottom line is: If those amateurs are the highest risk, we live in a pretty safe place.
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  #210  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:24
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The highest risk of death comes from car accidents I would guess. Or illness.

The highest risk of death from a terrorist group might come from Islamists. But even if it did, it would be neglible against the many other risks in life.


More people died in the UK during WW2 from road accidents than German bombs. No need to fight, then...
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  #211  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:25
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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More people died in the UK during WW2 from road accidents than German bombs. No need to fight, then...
Do you have anything to support that rather unlikely assertion?
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Let's agree that the glory days of communistic terror are aparently over... but as DB already said: Compared to for example the Baader-Meinhof group are those Islamists complete amateurs - from the tactics to the weapons, let alone being able to not get caught by the police... The IRA is not really active, so is ETA and the days of Carlos are long gone as well.

So my bottom line is: If those amateurs are the highest risk, we live in a pretty safe place.
The IRA & ETA lost. The UK/Spanish governments fought them (dirty sometimes) and won (for now, anyway).

If Islamists are only amateurs, Should the same solution apply ?
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:30
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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More people died in the UK during WW2 from road accidents than German bombs. No need to fight, then...
That sounds rather unlikely. Where do you get that from ?
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:32
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Btw, the judges' decision is planed for the 5th november (if the topic Wilder is of any interest to anybody at all...)

I give up.
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:34
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The IRA & ETA lost. The UK/Spanish governments fought them (dirty sometimes) and won (for now, anyway).

If Islamists are only amateurs, Should the same solution apply ?
Security forces throughout Europe have been rather effective at keeping the rather pathetic islamist would-be terrorists in their place for the last fifteen years or so. Indeed, the sheer infrequency of islamist terror attacks in Europe should be evidence enough of that. Over an equivalent period in the seventies and eighties, ETA and the IRA were setting off bombs all over the place. The IRA even managed to blow up the hotel in which the governing party of the United Kingdom were hosting a conference.

Meanwhile, the islamists have achieved, er, well not a fat lot, really.

Islamic terror might be a hot topic in Israel, but it isn't the first thing that pops into European heads when they think of Muslims. They tend to be more concerned about infrastructure pressures, the fracturing of communities and crime.
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:36
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The IRA & ETA lost. The UK/Spanish governments fought them (dirty sometimes) and won (for now, anyway).

If Islamists are only amateurs, Should the same solution apply ?
Is there any question about that? The police has the job to protect the public and as soon as somebody plans any form of violence for what motive whatsoever - from football hooligans to top terrorists - they have to intervene. They have a large arsenal from the traffic cop to secret services to observe potential trouble makers and arrest them as soon as they can proof the persons plans. But Wilders wants more: He wants to arrest and lock up POTENTIAL terrorists. In other words: People who have a different view on the world. I think this collides just as much with my views as any Muslim terrorist possibly could: There is absolutely no basis to lock up people a government does not like "just in case".

I know that Isreal does so - so we will probably not agree again. But I can very much agree that Israel is in a very different situation: "Possible terrorists" from the Gaza strip can if not detained easily hide again, get weapons and DO attack... this is not at all applicable for the Netherlands.
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:37
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Security forces throughout Europe have been rather effective at keeping the rather pathetic islamist would-be terrorists in their place for the last fifteen years or so. Indeed, the sheer infrequency of islamist terror attacks in Europe should be evidence enough of that. Over an equivalent period in the seventies and eighties, ETA and the IRA were setting off bombs all over the place. The IRA even managed to blow up the hotel in which the governing party of the United Kingdom were hosting a conference.

Meanwhile, the islamists have achieved, er, well not a fat lot, really.
and the shoe bomber Richard Reid should get a Darwin for trying to set light to his explosive ridden shoes while sitting in his seat surrounded by passengers and not just going to the toilets and setting it off from there. I mean really, hello ? HELLO ? IS ANYONE HOME ?
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  #218  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:43
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

BTW, off topic, but in answer to the silly assertion above.

UK road deaths for 1940 and 1941 were about 9000 per year. Over six years of war, that would be about 54 000 deaths.

Civilian deaths in the United Kingdom for the same period were 62 000.

Bombs pwn cars. Pashosh cedes point.

Now can we get back to the topic?
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Do you have anything to support that rather unlikely assertion?
my mistake: It should have been Casualties, not dead:

Total number of road casualties in 1930 was 178,000, out of which 7300 dead. I assume more casualties during the war as there were many more vehicles on the roads, driving without lights (blackout).

Blitz Casualties : about 43,000 dead, 51,000 injured: 94,000 casualties.

178,000 > 94,000

(source: wikipedia items for "The Blitz","Reported Road Casualties Great Britain", which quote The Cambridge historical encyclopedia of Great Britain and Ireland‎ and Department for Transport respectively)
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Old 18.10.2010, 17:46
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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my mistake: It should have been Casualties, not dead:

Total number of road casualties in 1930 was 178,000, out of which 7300 dead. I assume more casualties during the war as there were many more vehicles on the roads, driving without lights (blackout).

Blitz Casualties : about 43,000 dead, 51,000 injured: 94,000 casualties.

178,000 > 94,000
And then they turned the lights back on.

So... back to Geert Wilders and the spectre of the rise of Islam...
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