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  #221  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:52
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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my mistake: It should have been Casualties, not dead:

Total number of road casualties in 1930 was 178,000, out of which 7300 dead. I assume more casualties during the war as there were many more vehicles on the roads, driving without lights (blackout).

Blitz Casualties : about 43,000 dead, 51,000 injured: 94,000 casualties.

178,000 > 94,000

(source: wikipedia items for "The Blitz","Reported Road Casualties Great Britain", which quote The Cambridge historical encyclopedia of Great Britain and Ireland‎ and Department for Transport respectively)
Have you considered work as a double glazing salesman ?
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  #222  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:56
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Is there any question about that? The police has the job to protect the public and as soon as somebody plans any form of violence for what motive whatsoever - from football hooligans to top terrorists - they have to intervene. They have a large arsenal from the traffic cop to secret services to observe potential trouble makers and arrest them as soon as they can proof the persons plans. But Wilders wants more: He wants to arrest and lock up POTENTIAL terrorists. In other words: People who have a different view on the world. I think this collides just as much with my views as any Muslim terrorist possibly could: There is absolutely no basis to lock up people a government does not like "just in case".

I know that Isreal does so - so we will probably not agree again. But I can very much agree that Israel is in a very different situation: "Possible terrorists" from the Gaza strip can if not detained easily hide again, get weapons and DO attack... this is not at all applicable for the Netherlands.
I actually agree with you - "Administrative detention" (Which Israel does, as inherited from the British Mandate) is probably not needed in the Netherlands. Even if it means a few dead civilians every now and then. Freedom has it's price.
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  #223  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:56
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Have you considered work as a double glazing salesman ?
"So, Mr B. I see you have a family of Islamists living next door. In such circumstances, I can recommend this toughened glass, guaranteed to protect your family from bomb blasts, gun fire and the smell of curried goat. This particular model also has an LCD dimming feature, so you don't have to look at those awful women in their tent outfits. 500 000 CHF, cheap at half the price!"
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  #224  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:57
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Back to topic:
The tribunal called Wafa Sultan as an expert on islam. She nuked the coran. Literally. With such a support, Wilders uses this proces as a political scene. And he is succeding. Wilders' words can be very harsh, but always but into perspective. Isolated, a statement can be a huge scandal, but then, read the rest of the sentense.

Example: He said "Coran is worse han Mein Kampf".
Full sentense: "Coran is worse than Mein Kampf because Mein Kampf is a political book, the coran is a mix of politics and religion. It is easier to overcome a political ideology than a political ideology packed in a religious ideology."

Wilders knows that the public will only keep the fist part in mind, relate it to the images and critics he makes and get his message through. But his words in context have nothing to be sent to court for. And that method is widely used by Wilders to communicate at two levels. Call that strategy.
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  #225  
Old 18.10.2010, 17:58
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Have you considered work as a double glazing salesman ?
How is this "On topic" ?
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  #226  
Old 18.10.2010, 18:00
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I actually agree with you - "Administrative detention" (Which Israel does, as inherited from the British Mandate) is probably not needed in the Netherlands. Even if it means a few dead civilians every now and then. Freedom has it's price.
Civilians get killed all the time by criminals.

If you're dead, you're dead. It doesn't feel any better to be stabbed for your wallet than to be blown to smithereens by a jihadi.
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  #227  
Old 18.10.2010, 20:01
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

If someone smashes your new double glazed windows, or tries to set fire to your church and your mayor tells you just tells you to grin and bear it and that you share part of the blame and must discuss things maturly with your new neighbour - I'm sure that's what you'll do ?
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  #228  
Old 18.10.2010, 20:09
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Yep, that is a toughie. And yet, if you read the Bible, that is exactly what it asks you to do if you are a Christian.
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  #229  
Old 18.10.2010, 20:57
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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If someone smashes your new double glazed windows, or tries to set fire to your church and your mayor tells you just tells you to grin and bear it and that you share part of the blame and must discuss things maturly with your new neighbour - I'm sure that's what you'll do ?
I'd call the police, and let them deal with it.

A Muslim criminal is no different to any other kind of criminal. Why should they be treated any differently to any other vandal or arsonist if they smash windows or burn down churches?
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  #230  
Old 18.10.2010, 21:59
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

The police was called, but did nothing. The mayor of the city, very much aware of his city's new demographics, is not doing anything practical either.

You & your kids are threatend on your way to school & church.

what's your next action ?

the above is sadly not fiction.
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  #231  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:04
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The police was called, but did nothing. The mayor of the city, very much aware of his city's new demographics, is not doing anything practical either.

You & your kids are threatend on your way to school & church.

what's your next action ?

the above is sadly not fiction.
Vote for another mayor? I don't know. Where is this happening? Some city where the police don't do anything about arson? It doesn't sound like any city I've ever visited or lived in.

What point are you trying to make, here, Pashosh?
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  #232  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:19
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

The city exists in europe and its name will be revealed. you could be there in less than 2 hours flight.

Vote for another mayor who will have to depend on Muslim votes ? hardly a solution.

My point ? Islamist violence is already in Europe, it can not be argued away, nor does it seem to wane.

Criminals break peoples windows all the time, but when they break your windows again and again and the police just tells you to get plexiglass your patience wears very thin.
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  #233  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:22
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The city exists in europe and its name will be revealed. you could be there in less than 2 hours flight.
Spit it out, then.
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  #234  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:26
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Not until somene comes up with a solution which doesn't involve magic and/or name calling.
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  #235  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Do you have any idea WHY they have targeted your Church? Is this random violence in your opinion - or did something trigger this situation?
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  #236  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:33
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Not until somene comes up with a solution which doesn't involve magic and/or name calling.
Well, don't bother, then, because I'm tired of playing silly games based on hypothetical nonsense.

If it's a real city, please name it and provide some links to the incidents you say happened there.

If you are simply making it up to prove a point, then please show us the courtesy of admitting it, as I admitted that the tale of Mashwood Heath was an illustrative fable.

This is getting boring.
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  #237  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:36
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

The Church, the cemetary - many times.

Reason: Islamist hate.

Come on people - this is not a joke, but a real problem happening to real people right now.

How can we stop this ?
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  #238  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Well, don't bother, then, because I'm tired of playing silly games based on hypothetical nonsense.

If it's a real city, please name it and provide some links to the incidents you say happened there.

If you are simply making it up to prove a point, then please show us the courtesy of admitting it, as I admitted that the tale of Mashwood Heath was an illustrative fable.

This is getting boring.
Its not hypothetical - I wish it was, but it isn't.

I'll give you a hint: The city where this is happening is north of here, has a good police force & rule of law.
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  #239  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:52
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The Church, the cemetary - many times.

Reason: Islamist hate.

Come on people - this is not a joke, but a real problem happening to real people right now.

How can we stop this ?
Meet the leaders, talk, try to understand the issues - stopping the hatred might have to start with YOU somehow. It is one of the hardest thing to do- and yet it is what Jesus would expect of you, according to the Bible. It is not so long ago that the Catholics and Protestants were burning each other as heretics. Even in the late 40s when my parents got married, he a Catholic, she a divorced Protestant - had to suffer family and social hell to be get married. Islam and Christianity are closely related- and should try to understand each other better - humility and forgiveness + reaching out might be a good start.
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  #240  
Old 18.10.2010, 22:57
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

The attacked community did not retliate in force:
Discussions were held, nice words said, hands shaken - The violence didn't stop.

now what ?
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