Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #241  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:00
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
Its not hypothetical - I wish it was, but it isn't.
Why should we believe that? For all we know you're producing all this out of thin air.

Quote:
I'll give you a hint: The city where this is happening is north of here, has a good police force & rule of law.
Evidently it doesn't, or the "church" burners would have been arrested.
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:10
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 449
Groaned at 222 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 1,002 Posts
Pashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisance
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
Why should we believe that?
Because until now my posts were based of provable facts, if I made a mistake I apologised without reserve. The name of the city, people invloved - all will be published.

I'm not trying to taunt anyone - but to present a real case, looking for real answers.

Does anyone have them ? or all people have to offer are ad hominems ?

btw - your guess is correct, the Church is a "Church"
Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:16
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
Because until now my posts were based of provable facts
No, they are not, because you are, for the purposes of your silly game, deliberately witholding the name of the city where these incidents are alleged to have occured, which means that nobody else can verify what you are saying.

You say this city has good law and order. I say it can't have, if the police are unable or unwilling to arrest and charge the people who are burning churches.

You say the victimised community hasn't retaliated - you expect us to believe that an islamist attack on a church would go unpunished by the local skinheads?

Unless, of course, part of your game involves witholding the fact that these churches are actually synagogues and that the victimised group are Jews. If that is the case, of course, the fact that nobody has lifted a finger to help shouldn't really come as any surprise, should it?

Europe isn't exactly known for its fair handed dealings with certain minorities...
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:30
PennyMama's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zurich
Posts: 309
Groaned at 13 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 286 Times in 164 Posts
PennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of many
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
The highest risk of death comes from car accidents I would guess. Or illness.

The highest risk of death from a terrorist group might come from Islamists. But even if it did, it would be neglible against the many other risks in life.

Example: worried about dying from a terrorist anthrax attack ? (http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html):

Killed by Car Accidents

Highway fatalities account for more than 94% of all transportation deaths. There were an estimated 6,289,000 car accidents in the US in 1999. There were about 3.4 million injuries and 41,611 people killed in auto accidents in 1999. The total number of people killed in highway crashes in 2001 was 42,116, compared to 41,945 in 2000. An average of 114 people die each day in car crashes in the U.S. more...and 1999 pdf... [PDF Document - 2.5M]
Killed by the Common Flu

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) estimates that 35 to 50 million Americans come down with the flu during each flu season.The CDC estimates that in the US more than 100,000 people are hospitalized and more than 20,000 people die from the flu and its complications every year.

The Bottom Line...

An Anthrax Epidemic?


Killed in car accidents42,116*
Killed by the common flu20,000*
Killed by murders15,517*
Killed in airline crashes (of 477m passenger trips)120 (1)
Killed by lightning strikes90*
Killed by Anthrax 5
(1) Annual average over 19 year period.
*Average annual totals in United States.
I don't get what this proves. Just because there are more likely ways to die doesn't mean i shouldn't take protective measures. If more people die in car accidents than from swine flu, then i buckle my seatbelt and stop washing my hands? Terror may not be the worlds biggest danger, but they are a danger and should be dealt with. How, i'm not too sure. But there are enough training camps out there preaching hatred and promoting killing that other forms of death are really irrelevant in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
I don't get what this proves. Just because there are more likely ways to die doesn't mean i shouldn't take protective measures.
There are no protective measures civilians can take to avoid being victims of a (very rare) terrorist attack.

That's a job best left to the police and security forces.
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:37
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 449
Groaned at 222 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 1,002 Posts
Pashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisance
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

As no one was able to answer my questions, I'll give you the name of the city: Malmö.

The attacked community is indeed Jewish. not that it should make any difference, but obivously it does.

It won't in the future though, if history has anything to teach us.

link (one of many): http://www.thelocal.se/24632/20100127/

Feel free to discuss at length what a populist, a55hole GW is (which he may well be) - but the problem of islamist violence will not end in burned Syngogues.

The Jews of Malmö learned the hard way that relying on the police is not always the best answer.
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:45
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
The attacked community is indeed Jewish. not that it should make any difference, but obivuosly it does.
Of course it makes a difference. Even if you discount 1500 years of hysterical anti-semitism in Europe, the fact remains that if a vocal minority attacks a quiet minority, the majority population look away.

The same would happen if a gurdwara or Hindu temple were attacked.

The only solution is to get as vocal as those who attack. Get in the streets, get in the papers, make a fuss, embarrass the authorities, remind the world of Kristallnacht, if that is what is necessary to get them to pay attention.

Muslims get what they want because they combine and make a noise. In fact, they're pretty good at that, to the extent that some local authorities and organisations give them what they want before they even ask for it (to the great embarrassment of reasonable Muslims).

So long as the violence in Malmo is directed towards other minorities, it simply is not a problem for anyone else.

And the moment they start to burn Christian churches down, you can guarantee that every mosque in the city will follow.

The people of Europe could eradicate Islam on this continent in weeks if they became angry enough.

But until Islamists attack the mainstream, they'll never have a reason to.
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:50
maximum's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richterswil, ZH
Posts: 184
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 99 Times in 52 Posts
maximum has earned the respect of manymaximum has earned the respect of manymaximum has earned the respect of many
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
You have to learn more about the history, culture and religion. No offence but you don't know that much. No need to get offensive, Nil. This is a discussion and we disagree. And I know enough to see that there is something very wrong. I never said I was an expert on Muslim history. And I think I can think for myself what I have to learn or not.

The Old good muslim world wasn't like it is today. The modern world is the trigger of what is the muslim world today. Look on internet about what was Egypt, Iran, Irak, Afghanistan 50 years and less ago. It wasn't like it is now, it was much more open then now. I know that. I was talking about much longer ago, in the time the people thought it was normal to stone women (approx when the holy books were written) What happened? International Politics of some big countries coming in a screwing with them, etc... Yeah right, so International Politics did that? Maybe they helped, and I do agree that the USA is too intrusive in other countries politics.

In Egypt in Anouar El-Sadate times, you didn't have much of cover women, They had some trouble with the muslim brother group and sadly, someone, somewhere let them became what they are today... Before the Talibans, women were working, learning, dancing, going out, having a life. And who ended that? Muslim extremists. Did a large group of western immigrant try to change the country? No. We are not even allowed to enter the country let alone build a church. The other way around, a large group of muslim immigrant are putting a too strong mark on the western european culture to most people's believes. And even then, although I feel very sorry of those poor women in Taliban country: those are islamic countries. What can we do about that, should we in the first place?

Where you are right is about the Books not being relevant anymore. The Books were written to give some guide line to people back then. It was great for back then, Yeah it was great: women 2000 years ago must have found it super! it has now to be ajusted and interpreted with this time now, to a certain level. (Same as the Vatican who should do the same). The vatican is a bunch of old men who have taken alot from the people in the past and in return try to cover all those scandals, don't start... This discussion is about GW and muslims, does not mean there are not other groups I criticize...

Most of the people with education are able to take the good and leave the bad. If you keep your people without this education, you can control them. Who are you blaming for control? I know that in Holland they do everything to get everybody educated, huge amounts of money are transferred to schools with minorities, but with no real effect. Kids remain to enter school without speaking the language and kids continue to skip classes. Armies of community people were hired to get sense into them, get them back to school, even send them on trips to New York when they managed to finish a school year, yet still half of them boys prefers to steal over to learn. And the sheer energy in those guys. If only they put it into their own growth! Strange enough the girls are able to raise above their parents level and those girls are what I think the answer. We just have to be patient and therefore I agree that we should not allow to get more uneducated brides in. Let those guys choose between the smart girls from here (muslims or not), that will get sense into them! So can we blame those poor chaps without educations to believe what they believe? NO. Can we blame our gouvernement to do nothing about this? Hell YES! Maybe Deutschland is different then Holland, I don't know. But you, coming from an Immigrant background also managed to get somewhere, right? I just read the paper today about the issues with the Turks in Germany (by the way, in Holland it's mainly the Moroccans with the issues, not so much the Turks). If I understand right, you are from Turkish background, right? If the government does sh*t, and the poor chaps are helpless: so how come you got out? Mind you, I am not blaming the individual, but I do expect a certain responsibility, and willingness to be part of the country you live in. That's all. I feel that responsibility towards Switzerland myself, as I am now also an immigrant.

It is the the Muslims or Islam the problem. It is the lack of education in their countries and lack of integration in our countries.
agreed to part of it. It is true that usually the poor, bad-educated people are high in the criminal charts, whatever their still what bugs me is the chaps, from islamic countries, got the possibility to get western education, and yet in the name of islam fly airplanes in a building. Those were not poorly educated.

Nil, I am very sorry for you and your fellow muslims, and I understand it is difficult that people criticize something that is a big part of you, certainly cause there is nothing you can do about it. But there seems to be something really wrong with Islam. Saying to be the most peaceful religion (that is what I hear when muslims are asked to why terror happens..), all over the world people are killed, dishonoured and offended in the name of Islam. Someone who offends Islam, is reciprocated with murder (threats). At the same time European cities are changing dramatically. Then fellows with strange hair come up to say that everybody should leave. And all I am saying is that I understand why that happens and why he gets so much support. Not that I agree.
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 18.10.2010, 23:52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post


Interesting... I followed your link, and found this:

Quote:
In addition to the far-left, Sieradzki said that a very small segment” of the city’s growing population of Muslim immigrants from Arab countries in the Middle East are also responsible for growing anti-Semitism.
That doesn't seem to tally with the picture you have painted so far on this thread.

Would you care to explain the discrepancy?
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:13
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
As no one was able to answer my questions, I'll give you the name of the city: Malmö.

The attacked community is indeed Jewish. not that it should make any difference, but obivously it does.

It won't in the future though, if history has anything to teach us.

link (one of many): http://www.thelocal.se/24632/20100127/

Feel free to discuss at length what a populist, a55hole GW is (which he may well be) - but the problem of islamist violence will not end in burned Syngogues.

The Jews of Malmö learned the hard way that relying on the police is not always the best answer.

So there is a small but active group of Muslims in Malmo. There are also apparently right and left wing extremists, neo-Nazis. Is it clear that the burnings were initiated by Muslims? The article doesn't suggest that.

I wonder how much anti-Semitisim now is based upon feelings about Israel, rather than dislike of Jews. Those are two separate issues - just as not all Muslims are terrorists, neither do all Jews support the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza, etc.

I don't feel any more comfortable with Wilders because he supports Israel.
Reply With Quote
  #251  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:16
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
I wonder how much anti-Semitisim now is based upon feelings about Israel, rather than dislike of Jews.
It's the same thing, essentially. Anti-zionism is just the acceptable face of anti-semitism, especially when it manifests itself in the persecution of Jews based on the presumption that they are representatives of the Israeli state in some way, as suggested in the article to which Pashosh provided a link.
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:17
PennyMama's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zurich
Posts: 309
Groaned at 13 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 286 Times in 164 Posts
PennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of many
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
There are no protective measures civilians can take to avoid being victims of a (very rare) terrorist attack.

That's a job best left to the police and security forces.
Well this is about a member of parliment who claims to have the answers. And a terrorist attack, or even a hate crime is a very real threat for some people.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:24
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
Well this is about a member of parliment who claims to have the answers. And a terrorist attack, or even a hate crime is a very real threat for some people.
Europe has been living with terrorism for decades: proper terrorism, by terrorists who actually got the job done, who bombed ruthlessly, frequently and effectively, who kidnapped politicians and bankers, who shot people sitting in their living rooms or catching trains to town, who blew up pubs full of young people enjoying a night out and hotels hosting the government of the day.

We got through that alright. There's no reason why we shouldn't get through this little storm in a teacup, too.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:29
PennyMama's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zurich
Posts: 309
Groaned at 13 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 286 Times in 164 Posts
PennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of many
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
Europe has been living with terrorism for decades: proper terrorism, by terrorists who actually got the job done, who bombed ruthlessly, frequently and effectively, who kidnapped politicians and bankers, who shot people sitting in their living rooms or catching trains to town, who blew up pubs full of young people enjoying a night out and hotels hosting the government of the day.

We got through that alright. There's no reason why we shouldn't get through this little storm in a teacup, too.
Are you saying since terrorism has happened in the past, we should tolerate it now?
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
Are you saying since terrorism has happened in the past, we should tolerate it now?
We didn't tolerate it then. We let the police and the other security forces do their jobs, just as we are letting them do their jobs now.

What else are we supposed to do? Round up all the Muslims and put them in camps? Send them all to an island in the Pacific?

If someone commits a crime, whether that be smashing windows, burning down places of worship, procuring the materials for a bomb or laundering money for dodgy "charities", then let him be treated like any other criminal.

There's nothing particularly special about Islamist terrorists - apart from their incompetence, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:44
PennyMama's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zurich
Posts: 309
Groaned at 13 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 286 Times in 164 Posts
PennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of many
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
We didn't tolerate it then. We let the police and the other security forces do their jobs, just as we are letting them do their jobs now.

What else are we supposed to do? Round up all the Muslims and put them in camps? Send them all to an island in the Pacific?

If someone commits a crime, whether that be smashing windows, burning down places of worship, procuring the materials for a bomb or laundering money for dodgy "charities", then let him be treated like any other criminal.

There's nothing particularly special about Islamist terrorists - apart from their incompetence, of course.
No one was suggesting rounding up anybody. If i understood wilder-watched his film over a year ago- then all he's suggesting is to not allow preaching of islam within the country and to not grant citizenship to those who may end up as terrorists. Those living in the country must adapt locally and no living under sharia laws.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 19.10.2010, 00:58
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
It's the same thing, essentially. Anti-zionism is just the acceptable face of anti-semitism, especially when it manifests itself in the persecution of Jews based on the presumption that they are representatives of the Israeli state in some way, as suggested in the article to which Pashosh provided a link.
Yeah, ok, makes sense. So much stereotyping on either side.

I see some parallels - not all Jews are Zionists and not all Muslims follow Shaira law.

Wilders seems to exaggerate the likelihood that a Muslim will be a) following shaira law and b)a terrorist. But I suppose that when you lump all the Jews into some sort of radical Zionist framework, it's similar.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #258  
Old 19.10.2010, 01:02
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 449
Groaned at 222 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 1,002 Posts
Pashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisance
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
Interesting... I followed your link, and found this:

That doesn't seem to tally with the picture you have painted so far on this thread.

Would you care to explain the discrepancy?
Which discrepancy ? I posted many times that the majority of muslims are not active terrorists/criminals.

You suggested that I was making up a story, I proved that I was not.

your suggested methods: existing police police, international outcry - all tried, tested & & failed.

Sweden has re-elected a right wing government (First time , Germany's Chancellor (hardly a racist) declared that multiculturalism failed (well, duh), Netherlands, SVP - the list is getting longer.

Maybe tougher "police" action will isolate the problem (Ulster anyone?), but at the cost of how many civilian lives ?


Quote:
Antizionism is just the acceptable face of Antisemitism
You'll never work for the BBC, Guardian or Menace

Quote:
There's nothing particularly special about Islamist terrorists - apart from their incompetence, of course.
I hope this will stay true, but wouldn't bet on it.
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 19.10.2010, 01:10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Quote:
View Post
No one was suggesting rounding up anybody. If i understood wilder-watched his film over a year ago- then all he's suggesting is to not allow preaching of islam within the country and to not grant citizenship to those who may end up as terrorists. Those living in the country must adapt locally and no living under sharia laws.
All he's suggesting? Forbidding the preaching of a religion peacefully practised by more than a billion people? That's hardly in the spirit of a liberal democracy. And not granting citizenship to those who "may end up as terrorists"? Has Mr Wilders got a crystal ball? How is he to determine who is likely to become a terrorist? Measure their beards?

The British didn't forbid the preaching of Roman Catholicism, nor restrict the entry of Irish citizens to the United Kingdom during the seventies and eighties, and the IRA were a much bigger threat than the Islamists are today.

If we allow illiberal policies like these to become law, the Islamists will have won their propaganda war and everyone will suffer.

At the risk of Godwinising the thread, Hitler didn't stop with the Jews, did he? They were just the start of his mission.

If we let Mr Wilders suppress Islam, who will be next?

It's a dangerous road to go down, and utterly unnecessary.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #260  
Old 19.10.2010, 01:18
Pashosh's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Baden
Posts: 449
Groaned at 222 Times in 158 Posts
Thanked 1,823 Times in 1,002 Posts
Pashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisancePashosh is considered a nuisance
Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Let's start with the less radical measures:

Immigration of muslims into Europe:
1. yes.
2. no.
3. Only if they look like Nil's avatar & own at least one wicked weasel ?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dutch Comedy Night: Harry Glotzbach ( performed in Dutch) Moniek Commercial events 4 22.03.2010 17:38
Managed anti-spam and anti-virus service for individual domain-owners spamchek Commercial 0 13.05.2005 11:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0