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  #261  
Old 19.10.2010, 02:21
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Let's start with the less radical measures:

Immigration of muslims into Europe:
1. yes.
2. no.
3. Only if they look like Nil's avatar & own at least one wicked weasel ?
4. Don't single out the Muslims - treat all potential non-EU immigrants equally. Of course, you'd still have the right-to-family-reunion, which is the means by which many people enter the EU, but there's not a fat lot we can do about that without seriously infringing some pretty fundamental rights.
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  #262  
Old 19.10.2010, 02:30
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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All he's suggesting? Forbidding the preaching of a religion peacefully practised by more than a billion people? That's hardly in the spirit of a liberal democracy. And not granting citizenship to those who "may end up as terrorists"? Has Mr Wilders got a crystal ball? How is he to determine who is likely to become a terrorist? Measure their beards?

The British didn't forbid the preaching of Roman Catholicism, nor restrict the entry of Irish citizens to the United Kingdom during the seventies and eighties, and the IRA were a much bigger threat than the Islamists are today.

If we allow illiberal policies like these to become law, the Islamists will have won their propaganda war and everyone will suffer.

At the risk of Godwinising the thread, Hitler didn't stop with the Jews, did he? They were just the start of his mission.

If we let Mr Wilders suppress Islam, who will be next?

It's a dangerous road to go down, and utterly unnecessary.
There may be more than a billion people peacefully practicing it, but when you have a million or even a couple hundred posing a threat then they will be the ones getting the attention. Listen, i feel bad for the moderate muslims caught in the middle of all this, i really do, but the fact is that if a group of people are preaching extremism then someones got to take a stand against it before it gets out of hand. I am not a supporter of wilders, but religious fanaticism freaks the shit outta me, and as a democratic country you gotta do what it takes to ensure your country stays that way and anyone who threatens that status should not be allowed to do so. Ok so you can hardly claim any muslim in europe is a terrorist, but how are you to know he doesn't fund terror organizations? Should that be tolerated?
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  #263  
Old 19.10.2010, 02:41
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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There may be more than a billion people peacefully practicing it, but when you have a million or even a couple hundred posing a threat then they will be the ones getting the attention. Listen, i feel bad for the moderate muslims caught in the middle of all this, i really do, but the fact is that if a group of people are preaching extremism then someones got to take a stand against it before it gets out of hand.
The police and security forces are taking a stand against it every day, quietly and unobtrusively, just like they have stood against terrorism for decades. There is no need for grandstanding gestures, just quiet competence behind the scenes, as life goes on as usual.


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I am not a supporter of wilders, but religious fanaticism freaks the shit outta me, and as a democratic country you gotta do what it takes to ensure your country stays that way and anyone who threatens that status should not be allowed to do so.
Religious fanaticism has been a feature of everyday life for centuries. Why do we have to start worrying about it now?

I agree with you that democratic countries should stay democratic. That's why we have a duty to stand up to the likes of Geert Wilders who want to turn the clock back to the dark ages of European autocracy, using Muslims as an easy scapegoat.



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Ok so you can hardly claim any muslim in europe is a terrorist, but how are you to know he doesn't fund terror organizations? Should that be tolerated?
How are we to know that Irish Americans aren't funding terror organisations, like so many of them did throughout the seventies, eighties and nineties (funny how that suddenly stopped when New Yorkers came to realise first hand that terrorists aren't "freedom fighters" after all...)? People do criminal and immoral things all the time - the usual practise in a modern democracy is to punish them and not everyone who looks a bit like them.

This hysteria about Islamist terrorism is a distraction from the real problems of large scale immigration - the strain upon health and educational infrastructures, the disruption to established communities, and the potential of criminal behaviour among disenfranchised members of immigrant communities.
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  #264  
Old 19.10.2010, 10:25
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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agreed to part of it. It is true that usually the poor, bad-educated people are high in the criminal charts, whatever their still what bugs me is the chaps, from islamic countries, got the possibility to get western education, and yet in the name of islam fly airplanes in a building. Those were not poorly educated.

Nil, I am very sorry for you and your fellow muslims, and I understand it is difficult that people criticize something that is a big part of you, certainly cause there is nothing you can do about it. But there seems to be something really wrong with Islam. Saying to be the most peaceful religion (that is what I hear when muslims are asked to why terror happens..), all over the world people are killed, dishonoured and offended in the name of Islam. Someone who offends Islam, is reciprocated with murder (threats). At the same time European cities are changing dramatically. Then fellows with strange hair come up to say that everybody should leave. And all I am saying is that I understand why that happens and why he gets so much support. Not that I agree.
No, you didn't get me right, I am a french Canadian, born there, parents born there like my grand-parents and their parents and this until the colonisation and even before with my native great grand mother. I can't be more whity!

You took offense on one sentence and got nasty all the way down. Fine. Lets go back to civil manners from both side, shaw we?

What I read your posts, I can read that deep down, those extremist already got you in you gut. You have fears which I understand and I have them too. Like all my In-Laws, friends have too. We don't understand what those idiots are so up too. We can't agree with them and we will never be. This is belong understanding.

They might be Islamists, but they are not muslims. Muslims and Islam is not about violence, really! Talibans are a sub-divisions of a branch of Islam (I explained it earlier, remember?)

The problem is people don't know Islam. No matter what they read in the news has NOTHING to do with Islam. Anyway, why the news would bother to educate people? Their job is to sell.

People think Islam is a whole when actually it is like Christianity. You have the protestants, catholics, orthodox.... They have some very different points from each other... Same with Islam.

So when I say that you don't know much about it, this is what I meant. You don't know much about it like 98% of the population. You are no exception. But if you want to know about it, if you want to be able to see facts and put a real judgement on it, you have to know what it is.

This is what makes the ''moderate Muslims'' () angry. They see a bunch of idiots doing this stupids things and they shake their head thinking that they are not helping their cause.

The medias are even more stupid then those extremists. They give them a voice, they give them attention. They make them being idols and models to those other idiots who don't know better or what to do with their life. Brainwash their mind like the medias brainwash you minds in the west.
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  #265  
Old 19.10.2010, 10:28
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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As no one was able to answer my questions, I'll give you the name of the city: Malmö.

The attacked community is indeed Jewish. not that it should make any difference, but obivously it does.

It won't in the future though, if history has anything to teach us.

link (one of many): http://www.thelocal.se/24632/20100127/

Feel free to discuss at length what a populist, a55hole GW is (which he may well be) - but the problem of islamist violence will not end in burned Syngogues.

The Jews of Malmö learned the hard way that relying on the police is not always the best answer.
You know,

1. This thread is about Wilders. You completely derail it and I would love a Mod to either delete your last ten stupid child quiz posts or move them to an own thread.

Quote:
You suggested that I was making up a story, I proved that I was not.
2. Did you actually read the article you linked? It says that some Jews in Malmö are in fear of getting attacked by someone - but even the article does not answer who it is: The police blames mainly right winged extremists, neo-nazis that repeat the same old anti-semitic stuff. The Jewish representative blames left-winged extremists that hold the Jews accountable for the attrocities done by Israel in the past years. Yes, I call the use of cluster bombs attrocities and I do not care if you give me your whole Hamas answer or not.

Bottom line: This thread is on Muslims in the Netherlands. Your post is on Sweden and even better: THERE ARE NO MUSLIMS IN YOUR ARTICLE!!!

You are as off topic as it can get - and in the past ten discussions with your contributions, you always end up to drag any unrelated topic into a jewish/Israel issue. I have no problem to discuss them as well, they are very interesting topics. But please start your own threads and people can decide to join. Do not drag other peoples discussions into your thing all the time.

And now: Back to Wilders.
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  #266  
Old 19.10.2010, 10:32
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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It's the same thing, essentially. Anti-zionism is just the acceptable face of anti-semitism, especially when it manifests itself in the persecution of Jews based on the presumption that they are representatives of the Israeli state in some way, as suggested in the article to which Pashosh provided a link.
No you are wrong on this one.

I am anti-zionism like many other people Jews included. I am no anti-semitism.

I believe that who ever come to someone else land and take it away from them is wrong. I believe that putting this right to do so on the name of a Book is wrong.

Religion is not an excuse to kill, hurt, steal.

If this didn't happened, we will not be with the problems we have today. That was putting gaz on fire.
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Old 19.10.2010, 10:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You know,

1. This thread is about Wilders. You completely derail it and I would love a Mod to either delete your last ten stupid child quiz posts or move them to an own thread.



2. Did you actually read the article you linked? It says that some Jews in Malmö are in fear of getting attacked by someone - but even the article does not answer who it is: The police blames mainly right winged extremists, neo-nazis that repeat the same old anti-semitic stuff. The Jewish representative blames left-winged extremists that hold the Jews accountable for the attrocities done by Israel in the past years. Yes, I call the use of cluster bombs attrocities and I do not care if you give me your whole Hamas answer or not.

Bottom line: This thread is on Muslims in the Netherlands. Your post is on Sweden and even better: THERE ARE NO MUSLIMS IN YOUR ARTICLE!!!

You are as off topic as it can get - and in the past ten discussions with your contributions, you always end up to drag any unrelated topic into a jewish/Israel issue. I have no problem to discuss them as well, they are very interesting topics. But please start your own threads and people can decide to join. Do not drag other peoples discussions into your thing all the time.

And now: Back to Wilders.
perhaps you should read with eyes open : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...te-crimes.html

""This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now.""

GW is about Muslim immigration to Europe. My post is about one nasty effect of this immigration.
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  #268  
Old 19.10.2010, 11:02
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

"The Netherlands has “hate speech” laws, under which Mein Kampf is banned. Wilders said in the Dutch Parliament that “the Koran is a book that incites to violence,” and that “the distribution of such texts is unlawful according to Article 132 of our Penal Code.” If Mein Kampf could be banned under that article, why not another book that manifestly incites its readers to violence and hatred?"

Here we go again..
His defence on court is a statement that the Koran IS manifesting violence and hatred?

Mein Kampf shouldn´t be banned, it´s pure fiction.
Everything in Hitlers head was fictional.
Even he himself was somewhat a fiction novel character who came to life in a horror bestseller.
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  #269  
Old 19.10.2010, 11:43
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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No, you didn't get me right, I am a french Canadian, born there, parents born there like my grand-parents and their parents and this until the colonisation and even before with my native great grand mother. I can't be more whity!

Oh I am really sorry then, I could remember you saying that your parents moved to Germany being Turkish? I guess I totally mixed that up then!

You took offense on one sentence and got nasty all the way down. Fine. Lets go back to civil manners from both side, shaw we? I agree (probably the time of night also did not really helped me ranting on and on...)

What I read your posts, I can read that deep down, those extremist already got you in you gut. You have fears which I understand and I have them too. Like all my In-Laws, friends have too. We don't understand what those idiots are so up too. We can't agree with them and we will never be. This is belong understanding.

They might be Islamists, but they are not muslims. Muslims and Islam is not about violence, really! Talibans are a sub-divisions of a branch of Islam (I explained it earlier, remember?)

The problem is people don't know Islam. No matter what they read in the news has NOTHING to do with Islam. Anyway, why the news would bother to educate people? Their job is to sell.

People think Islam is a whole when actually it is like Christianity. You have the protestants, catholics, orthodox.... They have some very different points from each other... Same with Islam. I agree and I never meant to say anything else. All I was asking myself (and you cause I thought you were also a muslim) is when you read all those nasty things going on in the world in the name of Islam, that the moderate muslim would not want to run away from that.

So when I say that you don't know much about it, this is what I meant. You don't know much about it like 98% of the population. You are no exception. But if you want to know about it, if you want to be able to see facts and put a real judgement on it, you have to know what it is. I know that 98% is "normal" (whatever that means). 2% of a couple of million people is still alot by the way...

This is what makes the ''moderate Muslims'' () angry. They see a bunch of idiots doing this stupids things and they shake their head thinking that they are not helping their cause. And that is exactly what I mean. I'd think that the 98% of muslims got angry at the idiots. I was asking myself why that is not the case cause instead of that they seem to get angry at us.

The medias are even more stupid then those extremists. They give them a voice, they give them attention. They make them being idols and models to those other idiots who don't know better or what to do with their life. Brainwash their mind like the medias brainwash you minds in the west. You got a point but: should media not write about 9/11, about bombings of Iraqi markets?
But Nil, last Q: what do you think should change then in western europe. Fact is that Muslim immigration causes a lot of issues. The values or way of living is apparantly very different from the locals with the consequence that (when I talk about Holland), those immigrants are still not integrated despite lots of efforts of the Government. Instead of mingling into the local community adding some extra flavour to it (literally) like Surinam, Vietnamese, Indonesian immigrants has done before it.

Instead of that we face a community of criminal young boys, mothers who are not allowed to learn the local language, a very high percentage lives on well fare thus costs the community a lot of money, and in return of accepting all that in the past, we got imams preaching hate, we got our criticizers being murdered or threatened to get murdered, we got our grand ma's forced to leave the neighborhood, etc etc. Of course not everyone of the 1 million muslims in Holland does that (I know quite a bit who work hard and pay taxes and even marry Dutch guys/girls), but too many are, cause otherwise it would not be a problem, right? So my Q is: GW does not have the answer, do you?
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Old 19.10.2010, 11:43
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I believe that who ever come to someone else land and take it away from them is wrong.
Aren't you from North America?
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  #271  
Old 19.10.2010, 11:58
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Aren't you from North America?
Yes and my great grand-m'ma was one of those who had to live with the consequences of colonisation...
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Old 19.10.2010, 12:01
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Fact is that Muslim immigration causes a lot of issues. The values or way of living is apparantly very different from the locals with the consequence that (when I talk about Holland), those immigrants are still not integrated despite lots of efforts of the Government.
I was in Malaysia last month. Had a chat with a number of muslims. They are complaining about "Arabs" who seem to be moving by the droves to Malaysia and bringing their foreign culture like veiled women (Malaysian muslim women only cover their hair but are dressed quite colourfully and sometimes in body-hugging outfits, but the arabs cover their faces, etc.), aggressive manners, treating their wives poorly, etc. Very interesting that Muslims in a muslim country is getting annoyed about muslim immigration. I guess the problem is not religion, it is culture clash.
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  #273  
Old 19.10.2010, 12:02
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I guess the problem is not religion, it is culture clash.
Thank you. Sense prevails at last.

Can we close the thread now?
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  #274  
Old 19.10.2010, 12:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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"The Netherlands has “hate speech” laws, under which Mein Kampf is banned. Wilders said in the Dutch Parliament that “the Koran is a book that incites to violence,” and that “the distribution of such texts is unlawful according to Article 132 of our Penal Code.” If Mein Kampf could be banned under that article, why not another book that manifestly incites its readers to violence and hatred?"

Here we go again..
His defence on court is a statement that the Koran IS manifesting violence and hatred?

It probably is, just like the Bible and the torah. I can remember a story of a group of people, send to the promised land and when they arrived replying to God why they should kill the people of that land and take their land and his reply was something like, for questioning this (me) you have to wander in the desert for another 7 years. Nice God. Still wondering why so many people worship such a character. But to get back at the point. 2000 or so years ago there was God, Allah and Jahweh and frankly I get the feeling they are one of the same. Books were written (or fell from the sky as a Deus ex Machina) about them and mention horrible things, manifesting violence. Not a reason to banish it. I am actually ashamed to be from Holland, cause Holland thinks it should ban books, while half the book stores, Videothekes and Music shops is filled with books, films and music manifesting violence.


Mein Kampf shouldn´t be banned, it´s pure fiction. agreed
Everything in Hitlers head was fictional.
Even he himself was somewhat a fiction novel character who came to life in a horror bestseller.
Eeeeh, I hope you meant that in a cynical way or I misunderstood that, cause this guy was very real, especially to all his victims...
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  #275  
Old 19.10.2010, 12:08
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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But Nil, last Q: what do you think should change then in western europe. Fact is that Muslim immigration causes a lot of issues. The values or way of living is apparantly very different from the locals with the consequence that (when I talk about Holland), those immigrants are still not integrated despite lots of efforts of the Government. Instead of mingling into the local community adding some extra flavour to it (literally) like Surinam, Vietnamese, Indonesian immigrants has done before it.

Instead of that we face a community of criminal young boys, mothers who are not allowed to learn the local language, a very high percentage lives on well fare thus costs the community a lot of money, and in return of accepting all that in the past, we got imams preaching hate, we got our criticizers being murdered or threatened to get murdered, we got our grand ma's forced to leave the neighborhood, etc etc. Of course not everyone of the 1 million muslims in Holland does that (I know quite a bit who work hard and pay taxes and even marry Dutch guys/girls), but too many are, cause otherwise it would not be a problem, right? So my Q is: GW does not have the answer, do you?
I don't have the answer. Maybe the gouvernement should spnd more time and energy to get those people to actually integrated. Maybe they should try to put in place some mesures to help those families, those kids at the school. Maybe they should try to change mentality of the general population instead to push the hate.

We have the problem in Canada as well, but not at this point (yet) You have this problem with street gang (for us it is with the black young men) we also have problems with the Hasidics Jews. They are transforming whole neightbourhoods into squares of lines, they make woman gym closing their windows with dark films and makes the people who used to live around unconfortable. We also have some villages that came out with a How to live with us chart where they explained that swimming a the public pool in a Burka is not tolerated.

We don't have violence and agressions coming from any religious group. Maybe because we are used to each other now, and because we need each other too?
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  #276  
Old 19.10.2010, 12:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Can we close the thread now?
No
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Old 19.10.2010, 12:12
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Mein Kampf shouldn´t be banned, it´s pure fiction.
Everything in Hitlers head was fictional.
Even he himself was somewhat a fiction novel character who came to life in a horror bestseller.
Quite besides which, Mein Kampf is horribly badly written, unimaginative and endlessly repetitive. Even within the Nazi party, very few people actually read it and I doubt that many people were converted to Naziism because of it. Its ban is therefore completely inconsequential.
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Old 19.10.2010, 12:21
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Yes and my great grand-m'ma was one of those who had to live with the consequences of colonisation...
Could you explains somebody from the old world what that means? She was able to purchase tea? Or are you a Muslim Native American (MNA®)?
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Old 19.10.2010, 12:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I don't have the answer. Maybe the gouvernement should spnd more time and energy to get those people to actually integrated. Maybe they should try to put in place some mesures to help those families, those kids at the school. This is already done, without much effect. Maybe they should try to change mentality of the general population instead to push the hate. there was nothing wrong with that mentality in Holland, the biggest problem in Holland is that the government seems to be accepting the issues too much. People started to vote GW cause the government was not criticizing enough. People started to get the feeling they pay a lot of taxes and in return there pension rights are decreased, while the immigrants receive more then they pay by subsidizing schools, bike and language lessons for the muslim mothers to get them out of the house, trips to all over the world for kids that did better etc etc. Government did everything besides asking for responsibility from that group

We have the problem in Canada as well, but not at this point (yet) You have this problem with street gang (for us it is with the black young men) we also have problems with the Hasidics Jews. They are transforming whole neightbourhoods into squares of lines, they make woman gym closing their windows with dark films and makes the people who used to live around unconfortable. We also have some villages that came out with a How to live with us chart where they explained that swimming a the public pool in a Burka is not tolerated. The big difference between the Jews and Muslims (and Christians by the way) is that they turn away from other religions, instead of trying them to become one of them. This ignoring makes people to feel uncomfortable (and I know, having lived in the Amsterdam Jewish quarter, being ignored by a lot of the orthodox ones). But not attacked.

We don't have violence and agressions coming from any religious group. Maybe because we are used to each other now, and because we need each other too?
Maybe the groups are too small in Canada. I think the main reason that muslim immigration has got to be such an issue in Europe is that the group is too big. Frankly, if I lived in Switzerland only surrounded by Dutch people, I would speak Dutch, now I am forced to learn German and after 2 months living here, I get compliments on my level already. The few Muslim families who where moved to small villages felt very left out in the beginning, but are now grateful. Normal people with their hearts on the right place don't care what the family next door is thinking or doing (well, they should not try to kill sheep on the balcony but hey!) and will help new families to integrate into their new surroundings.
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Old 19.10.2010, 12:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Could you explains somebody from the old world what that means? She was able to purchase tea? Or are you a Muslim Native American (MNA®)?
She was a Native American. Her and her family were persecuted and like many Native kids send to those catholic churchs were too many got abused by the Catholic representants.
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