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  #321  
Old 24.10.2010, 10:21
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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actually i do think it was to the point somehow
i just get really allergic whenver someone accuses jews of stealing land
especially since well..look around at europe who stole land and homes of jews only 60 years ago and are now accusing jews of stealing land of palestinians ( the same land that exchanged hands many times over and now is BACK in jewish hands , purchased to a great extent )

It does make my skin crawl and all thinking well isnt that a great defense mechanism and i dont think it needs much explaination

BUT the Dutch well they have the same thing going
pretty soon the moslems will be accusing THEM of stealing their land
and calling it MOLLAND ( moslem holland)
Why trying to mix everything into one thread ? the topic here is the Netherlands and its extremists leader

That Wilders loves to talk about "Muslims" shows the demagogue, as he very precisely is against Arabs, whether the folks in question are very religious or not is of no interest to him

And the last "joke" about "land stealing" is not just lame, it is clinically dead
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  #322  
Old 24.10.2010, 13:23
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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he very precisely is against Arabs, whether the folks in question are very religious or not is of no interest to him
That again is to be looked at more closely because you have a point. A big one. On of his main points is that the integratîon is not made impossible by the religion in itself but by cultural differences on values, definition of right and wrong, views on freedom of choice and family council justice as opposed to state justice. The fact that he often puts the debate on the cultural level, defining religion as the catalizator of cultural unwritten rules that are imported and used as a tool for social controle and identity in these communities, makes him a talented rhethorist and quite convincing of a frange of the population who experience the contradictions of values from immigrant cultures with the dutch ones. In that sense, Wilders is also convincing because he does not have the same discourse against the Indonesians or Surinameses, showing that he is able of making differences not only based on racism but on his analysis of cultural elements and their impact on social behaviour. That makes him far less racist in speech even if he really has a race issue. This is why I do not think it is wise to label him as right.extremist because based on dutch politics and his discourse within the dutch political spectrum, he appears far more moderated than any other populistic parties like in France, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Denmark or even Italy.

I am not sure that much of what he said has been translated into English, so it is difficult to get into details. Attention please: I am NOT saying that you are all wrong, I just draw your attention to the fact that there is another level in his speeches within the dutch political debate. And that actually makes a difference how to judge him and how to explain his succes in elections.
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  #323  
Old 27.10.2010, 00:05
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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That again is to be looked at more closely because you have a point. A big one. On of his main points is that the integratîon is not made impossible by the religion in itself but by cultural differences on values, definition of right and wrong, views on freedom of choice and family council justice as opposed to state justice. The fact that he often puts the debate on the cultural level, defining religion as the catalizator of cultural unwritten rules that are imported and used as a tool for social controle and identity in these communities, makes him a talented rhethorist and quite convincing of a frange of the population who experience the contradictions of values from immigrant cultures with the dutch ones. In that sense, Wilders is also convincing because he does not have the same discourse against the Indonesians or Surinameses, showing that he is able of making differences not only based on racism but on his analysis of cultural elements and their impact on social behaviour. That makes him far less racist in speech even if he really has a race issue. This is why I do not think it is wise to label him as right.extremist because based on dutch politics and his discourse within the dutch political spectrum, he appears far more moderated than any other populistic parties like in France, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Denmark or even Italy.

I am not sure that much of what he said has been translated into English, so it is difficult to get into details. Attention please: I am NOT saying that you are all wrong, I just draw your attention to the fact that there is another level in his speeches within the dutch political debate. And that actually makes a difference how to judge him and how to explain his succes in elections.
He twists and distorts things. The definition of right and wrong in the Arab World is much the same as in Europe, most Arabs are in favour of the Freedom of Choice, and practically all Arab countries are very strict in regard to state justice and do not tolerate family council justice.
-
The far-right FPO in Austria is not as far-right as Wilders, and the neo-Fascists in Italy in recent years have moved towards the centre. No, he is on the line of Jean-Marie LePen and so IS a right-wing extremist.

Indonesia used to be Dutch for long times, just as Dutch Guyana (Surinam). THIS is the difference and not the culture aspect.
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  #324  
Old 27.10.2010, 00:30
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Not exactly. Let's say that the arab states (and btw also the persian, albanian, indian-pakistani and turkish world) fight the same problems as to unwritten traditional justice. One can not say that they have a huge succes in that matter. That's where Wilders has a point that looks good when presented to a wide audience: even the state of origine have the greatest difficulties to fight traditions that nobody want to see growing in the Netherlands. The number of honnor murder in Turkey, the Balkan or further east does not exactly prove Wilders wrong on that point.

I disagree strongly with the comparaison with LePen. The latter is a colonialist with traditional far-right paramilitary fantasies. The opposite of Wilders on all those points. Wilders is also in my view a true racist, but the packaging is totally different. The fact that you and me can see through it does not mean that we are exempted from treating them in respect to their actings and doings within the political world they belong to. And this is were LePen and Wilders are very different. I havn't read the Dutch papers for a couple of weeks, but don't tell me Wilders made comments against Jews denying holocaust and torture in ex-colonies like LePen does on a regular basis.

On Dutch social issues, Wilders is NOT neoliberal, but is not socialist either. He did not take over Pim Fortuyn's allergy for state servants. He stays quiet about most real political topics, and that was one of the great worries of the observers this year when they were negociating new parlamentary aliance for government: Wilders is a big question mark on most governmental issues. LePen has very clearly stated what kind of dictatorship he wanted to introduce if given the chance.

Yes, Wilders is obsessed by his hate of islamic culture, thus religion. But he is far too aware of the necessity of being jews-friendly (at least for the show) in Dutch politics to get the label "far-right fascist" without a couple of important foot notes.
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  #325  
Old 27.10.2010, 09:07
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

By the way interesting that Wilders is leading attention to the Queen's role in government... that makes a wonderful topic to feed the people and allows him to avoid real political questions. This guy just has a huge ego and no real political competence. Impressive in a way how he allways avoids to deal with the real thing.
In Dutch: http://nieuws.nl.msn.com/algemeen/ar...ntid=155094846
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  #326  
Old 27.10.2010, 15:15
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Wilders is very much pro-Israel, it is not for the show, having lived there for a while and he visits the place quite often.

As for the political competence, are you kidding me? He holds a minority but has a huge influence on the agenda for the next few years. In the way the current government is structured ("gedoogkabinet") his impact is huge. From a neutral political point of view: well played. (On the other hand, after 12 years in parliament for the VVD he had no impact whatsoever)

On Dutch social issues, GW is pretty left wing, despite all his anti "left church" rhetoric.

As for his "attack" on the Queens' role. It doesn't come as a surprise given the fact that she tried to wield her influence to the max in order to keep the PVV out.

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I disagree strongly with the comparaison with LePen. The latter is a colonialist with traditional far-right paramilitary fantasies. The opposite of Wilders on all those points. Wilders is also in my view a true racist, but the packaging is totally different. The fact that you and me can see through it does not mean that we are exempted from treating them in respect to their actings and doings within the political world they belong to. And this is were LePen and Wilders are very different. I havn't read the Dutch papers for a couple of weeks, but don't tell me Wilders made comments against Jews denying holocaust and torture in ex-colonies like LePen does on a regular basis.

On Dutch social issues, Wilders is NOT neoliberal, but is not socialist either. He did not take over Pim Fortuyn's allergy for state servants. He stays quiet about most real political topics, and that was one of the great worries of the observers this year when they were negociating new parlamentary aliance for government: Wilders is a big question mark on most governmental issues. LePen has very clearly stated what kind of dictatorship he wanted to introduce if given the chance.

Yes, Wilders is obsessed by his hate of islamic culture, thus religion. But he is far too aware of the necessity of being jews-friendly (at least for the show) in Dutch politics to get the label "far-right fascist" without a couple of important foot notes.
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By the way interesting that Wilders is leading attention to the Queen's role in government... that makes a wonderful topic to feed the people and allows him to avoid real political questions. This guy just has a huge ego and no real political competence. Impressive in a way how he allways avoids to deal with the real thing.
In Dutch: http://nieuws.nl.msn.com/algemeen/ar...ntid=155094846
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  #327  
Old 27.10.2010, 15:17
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Yeah, great.... now they have to do the bloody trial all over again..

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  #328  
Old 27.10.2010, 19:17
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

He is an excellent strategic player. But he never had to lead a political office. He is good as parliament politician, but as governing politician...?
I agree about the attack on the Queen, he's been bugging the country for a long time with that. I was implying that the moment was well chosen to start a controvertial debate about the Queen's power when one does not want to show how weak one is as a real politician with an actual work to do for the people.
On social issue, that is exactly my point: nothing far-right neoliberalism like LePen & co. This is why I was contesting the label "neofascist far-right" and comparaison with foreign parties of such ideology.
Exactly my point on Israel too. I was just being modest and did not want to imply that I know it for sure: I let each of you the judge of his positive attitude towards Jews in the Netherlands as well as Israel, whether it is show or not. Fact is, as you reminded us, that Wilders' speech is jewish-friendly. That again differenciate him from he european far-right parties.
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  #329  
Old 27.10.2010, 22:56
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Not exactly. Let's say that the arab states (and btw also the persian, albanian, indian-pakistani and turkish world) fight the same problems as to unwritten traditional justice. One can not say that they have a huge succes in that matter. That's where Wilders has a point that looks good when presented to a wide audience: even the state of origine have the greatest difficulties to fight traditions that nobody want to see growing in the Netherlands. The number of honnor murder in Turkey, the Balkan or further east does not exactly prove Wilders wrong on that point.

I disagree strongly with the comparaison with LePen. The latter is a colonialist with traditional far-right paramilitary fantasies. The opposite of Wilders on all those points. Wilders is also in my view a true racist, but the packaging is totally different. The fact that you and me can see through it does not mean that we are exempted from treating them in respect to their actings and doings within the political world they belong to. And this is were LePen and Wilders are very different. I havn't read the Dutch papers for a couple of weeks, but don't tell me Wilders made comments against Jews denying holocaust and torture in ex-colonies like LePen does on a regular basis.

On Dutch social issues, Wilders is NOT neoliberal, but is not socialist either. He did not take over Pim Fortuyn's allergy for state servants. He stays quiet about most real political topics, and that was one of the great worries of the observers this year when they were negociating new parlamentary aliance for government: Wilders is a big question mark on most governmental issues. LePen has very clearly stated what kind of dictatorship he wanted to introduce if given the chance.

Yes, Wilders is obsessed by his hate of islamic culture, thus religion. But he is far too aware of the necessity of being jews-friendly (at least for the show) in Dutch politics to get the label "far-right fascist" without a couple of important foot notes.
You are certainly right, except that your explanations only make Wilders the lesser evil / less extremist that the chap in France. And in regard to the unwritten traditional justice fact is that this kind of justice in practically all Arab countries is prohibited even is still taking place in some remoter areas. His use of the term Muslim however is just because he knows that this term is far more useful for his tirades.

And finally, in India, Turkey, Kosovo and Albania, unwritten tradional justice even if existing in some remoter places is both against the law and against the constitution of these four countries.

The Muslims in the Netherlands are neither from Pakistan nor Iran nor Saudi Arabia but from Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco, countries which majority-wise are simply not as Wilders portrays them to be.
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Old 27.10.2010, 23:06
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

BTW neither are the Muslims in Switzerland.
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  #331  
Old 28.10.2010, 18:14
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You are certainly right, except that your explanations only make Wilders the lesser evil / less extremist.
True. That's a horrible thought but I am afraid this is the core of the Wilders-manipulation. I do not doubt that he is a true racist, but the box is made so that it does not match the content.
And in a way, I wonder if LePen is less dangerous for democracy than Wilders... as the latter is on seducing mode only, covering the uggly parts unter a big smile. LePen don't smile, at least you know what you'd get.
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  #332  
Old 28.10.2010, 18:40
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Is Wilders racist?
If Wilders is anti-islamic then does this make him a racist?

Technically speaking, "Islam" according to wikipedia is not a race, but rather a religion, a belief.

"Islam (Arabic: الإسلامal-’islām, pronounced [ʔislæːm] ( listen)[note 1]) is the monotheistic religion articulated by the Qur’an, a text considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh), and by the teachings and normative example of Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

"Racism is the belief that the genetic factors which constitute race are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

I think many cultures are concerned about the influence an organized religion can pose to society.

Does this make those concerned implicitly racist?
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  #333  
Old 28.10.2010, 18:54
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Well said as far as semantics is concerned... but you missed the point about Wilders: The question whether the outside matches the inside is legitimate and very interesting in his case.
Last word about semantics: replace "racist" by "xenophobic" in this thread when you read it (again), that will help you. While you are at it, take the trouble to read carefully the messages explaining to what extend Wilders can not be taken for a far-right-fasciste (inplying racism as a ingredient of it). Hugely helpful.
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  #334  
Old 28.10.2010, 19:37
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

The definition of political fascism is a slippery one and apart from some rather academic definitions, fascism is just a name that is thrown about to discredit people as far as modern day (as opposed to historical) fascism is concerned. Nobody today is exactly like Hitler or Mussolini and times have moved on (not to cue the debate over whether indeed Hitler was a fascist). Also, fascists of the past have moved on and become something else. Francois Mitterand supported Petain at one point but later changed camps and became a socialist and spoke out quite a bit against racism. Cynics say the change was opportunistic rather than a genuine change of heart. If this is true, then it raises the question of who he really was and what he really believed in - apart from being anti-Gaulist which seems to be the one trait that he retained throughout his career.

I'm not really sure what it is the drives Le Pen. His party has gone through ups and downs over the years but I cannot imagine any set of circumstances that would enable him to come to power and I'm pretty sure he knows that. So is he content with playing the clown from an eternal opposition position, or is he genunely so deluded to think that one day the other parties will choose to cooperate with him? I tend towards the former. He loves the limelight and he loves clowning and he's good at it. He's also becoming increasingly senile and there doesn't appear to be an obvious successor.

With Wilders however, I wouldn't say that. He may be a clown as well but he is intent on gaining power and he is talking to a least some of the other parties and they are taking him semi-seriously. I wouldn't exclude that he will be part of some future coalition and that he will gain some ministerial position. What then? This fact alone makes him more dangerous than Le Pen. On the other hand, as a minister he may turn out to be just as ineffective as Haider was. But should we be prepared to take that risk?

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Old 28.10.2010, 20:48
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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If Wilders is anti-islamic then does this make him a racist?

(...)
Does this make those concerned implicitly racist?
Would you consider antisemitism as racism? Judaism is a religion covering different races (european ashkenaze, african/middle east sefarade, african ethiopian falasha).
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Old 28.10.2010, 21:26
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Until now, all fascist partries showed their true color long before they got into any position of power by using violence as a political tool - the BNP has thugs, Le pen and Haider's people did not shy away from beating the odd immigrant.

Did GW's party use violence until now? (considering that they exist for a few years and have a large share of the votes, one would expect them to)
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Old 28.10.2010, 22:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Until now, all fascist partries showed their true color long before they got into any position of power by using violence as a political tool - the BNP has thugs, Le pen and Haider's people did not shy away from beating the odd immigrant.

Did GW's party use violence until now? (considering that they exist for a few years and have a large share of the votes, one would expect them to)
anti-mosque violence does exist in Netherlands. The violence of the words used by GW can only push crazy people to commit violent acts against muslims in NL. I hope you do not support such actions.

But as in some other country, you may think that arson is only due to an electrical defect.
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Old 28.10.2010, 23:11
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Would you consider antisemitism as racism? Judaism is a religion covering different races (european ashkenaze, african/middle east sefarade, african ethiopian falasha).
Good point.
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Old 28.10.2010, 23:12
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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anti-mosque violence does exist in Netherlands. The violence of the words used by GW can only push crazy people to commit violent acts against muslims in NL. I hope you do not support such actions.

But as in some other country, you may think that arson is only due to an electrical defect.
"The violence of the words used by GW can only push crazy people to commit violent acts against muslims in NL." - you couldn't find any evidence if GW actual violence, so you resort to clairvoyance ? If you have proof of GW's partys violence - please provide it, instead of making predictions.

Arson, from your 2 link "He says that Muslims lodge relatively few complaints of arson due to fear of reprisals." - why would there be reprisals for reporting crime ? or perhpas because very few cases of Arson attacks on mosques do happen ?

Is someone sets fire to any building (as Islamists often do, more than any other political group in Europe & the middle east) they should be prosecuted.
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Old 28.10.2010, 23:28
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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"The violence of the words used by GW can only push crazy people to commit violent acts against muslims in NL." - you couldn't find any evidence if GW actual violence, so you resort to clairvoyance ? If you have proof of GW's partys violence - please provide it, instead of making predictions.
(...)

Is someone sets fire to any building (as Islamists often do, more than any other political group in Europe & the middle east) they should be prosecuted.
of course you have tons of proofs and statistical evidence for that.

We talk about GW & anti-muslim racism in NL. Why do you mix-in islamism? Does muslim = islamist for you?

So according to you, the hate speeches can't cause any harm or push people to violence....I wonder why hate speeches are punished by law.
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