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  #341  
Old 28.10.2010, 23:29
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Too much rhethorics in there. Sorry.

Wilders as individual is not violent.
In a political movement, the question is not what the leaders do, but what the followers feel entitled to do. And with Wilders, we do not know yet. It does not mean that he is just yet another politician like any other. In the present parliament majority, he is a silent partner who does not intend to keep quiet, but not part of the govermet. He will always get a way to look innocent. If you want to believe he is as innocent as he shows himself to be, be my guest. But don't come and tell me that it is unreasonnable to be suspicious.
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  #342  
Old 28.10.2010, 23:55
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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of course you have tons of proofs and statistical evidence for that.

We talk about GW & anti-muslim racism in NL. Why do you mix-in islamism? Does muslim = islamist for you?

So according to you, the hate speeches can't cause any harm or push people to violence....I wonder why hate speeches are punished by law.
of course there is lots of proof of the Islamist violence.
I brought them up to show the difference between real, actual, threat (Islamists), and possible future threat (GW).

GW hate speach - was he convicted yet, or are you the only one here with a functioning time machine ?

It not illegal to be racist, it's illegal to carry out racist ACTIONS. you shouldn't convict anyone fot their opinions. and yes -this applies to people with Nazi opinions too, as long as they do not DO anything racist.
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  #343  
Old 29.10.2010, 00:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

[QUOTE=Pashosh;994939]"The violence of the words used by GW can only push crazy people to commit violent acts against muslims in NL." - you couldn't find any evidence if GW actual violence, so you resort to clairvoyance ? If you have proof of GW's partys violence - please provide it, instead of making predictions.

Arson, from your 2 link "He says that Muslims lodge relatively few complaints of arson due to fear of reprisals." - why would there be reprisals for reporting crime ? or perhpas because very few cases of Arson attacks on mosques do happen ?

Is someone sets fire to any building (as Islamists often do, more than any other political group in Europe & the middle east) they should be prosecuted.[/QUOTE]
This also should apply to the JDF Right?
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  #344  
Old 29.10.2010, 00:13
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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of course there is lots of proof of the Islamist violence.
I brought them up to show the difference between real, actual, threat (Islamists), and possible future threat (GW).

GW hate speach - was he convicted yet, or are you the only one here with a functioning time machine ?

It not illegal to be racist, it's illegal to carry out racist ACTIONS. you shouldn't convict anyone fot their opinions. and yes -this applies to people with Nazi opinions too, as long as they do not DO anything racist.
No i don't have a time machine, but a BS detector that gets very active when you post.

The Swiss law with art 261 is very clear about racist opinions expressed in public spaces. I don't consider racism as an opinion, to me it's an offence.
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  #345  
Old 29.10.2010, 00:43
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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No i don't have a time machine, but a BS detector that gets very active when you post.

The Swiss law with art 261 is very clear about racist opinions expressed in public spaces. I don't consider racism as an opinion, to me it's an offence.
Racism offends you, but ad hominems are no problem ?

What BS ? my posts are backed up by facts, yours are simply your opinion (backed up by groans, and research which shows that Singapore is a Muslim country ).

You don't have to agree with me (Even I don't always do it ) , but at least try to have a polite conversation.

GW is a populist, but with some good points (integration, threat of radical Islam) - if the counter argument decends to "he is a clown", he won.

I brought up the case of the Jewish community in Malm, which is targeted by Muslim immigrants and is therefore declining - Unless something serious is done the problem will grow, and GW will seem very timid indeed.
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  #346  
Old 29.10.2010, 00:54
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Israel is and not the topic because it is a case of putting on trial the wrong person i think
I have not seen anyone hear think that Iran is any threat
I wonder is this the atmosphere of the era before WW2
I dont think or believe for a moment that extreme moslem terror is harmless
in fact i think this is a ticking clock and putting on trial an extremist Dutch politican seems to me rather dumb in face of Irans president treated and greeted like a king.
I sense a lot of anti israel sentiments in Europe before accusing Israel of state terror take a microscope and see how big the land that is supposed to be the jewish homeland and refuge place is..
also did you hear of the Jews thrown out of Arab lands? yes, millions
and did they get EU money or use any money to terrorise anyone?
no, they left tons of property and went to Israel but there too found no peace
and this is just an exemple of what will be in europe in a few decades
i have no doubt of that
extremists who declare intentions of murdering anyone who does not agree with them should not demand anyone be put to trial
nor should any european country wonder why people dont seem to be thrilled about being neighbors with people who dont integrate and declare murderous intentions
to blame Israel is just a private case of antisemitism because Israel is the only land that let in jews fleeing from europe
and i believe that it is only a matter of time before it is clear
that racism is on the rise but from the Moslem extremist corner no less
than the right wing of europe
except that the right wing politicans dont stab people in the middle of the day in the back
I know you all love to hate Israel but look how big israel is and how in such a short time the people managed to get organized and that means also develope an infrastructure, industry and agriculture that shares its knowledge with the whole world, yes, parts of the computer you use, mobile phones etc and the list is pretty long and consider why people hate a country that contributes so much and supports people who insist on an arms struggle rather than talks, who votes into power extremists and kills anyone who opposes them
i really do wish the right people were put on trial
i think the jews have had their trials for the past couple of centuries
so give it a rest
and put the president of iran to trial first and stop licking up to him
it is not harmless and it is too familiar, way too familiar to forget
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  #347  
Old 29.10.2010, 01:13
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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GW is a populist, but with some good points (integration, threat of radical Islam) - if the counter argument decends to "he is a clown", he won.
This IS true, as he says what some people want to hear BUT the dangerous thing about Wilders is that he actually believes in his speeches
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  #348  
Old 29.10.2010, 02:09
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Not me, I was busy reading the article you linked to about South Africa and what a fine mess it is.

Starshine's post is off topic, but accurate...
But there are big segments missing .I blame it on being off topic
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  #349  
Old 29.10.2010, 02:16
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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What does Israel has to do with this ?

Unless, of course, you need to maintain your "Anti Zionism" credentials.
Congratulation Pashosh! For not using the therm "Antisemitic"
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  #350  
Old 29.10.2010, 02:28
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Oi! You can't blame us for that one!

I'll give you Canadians, though...
WTF did I do now ?
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  #351  
Old 29.10.2010, 02:42
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Treverus said he'd never heard of a European support of Administrative detention. I gave him one example. Maybe I should have used France instead (Detention can be up to 4 years before case is brought to trial), or 18 months in Greece (http://terrorism.about.com/od/counte...Detention-.htm)

Israel is resposible for Administrative detention in israel - and, indeed, these prisoners do have access to Israeli courts which have proven their independance many times. they are not locked away for indefinite term without recourse to justice.

Which goes to show - GW is (maybe) suggesting much harsher means to solve a much smaller problem. Hardly Israel's fault. If anything, there might be Israeli politicians with a GW dybbuk
The "Haaretz" tells me a different story
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  #352  
Old 29.10.2010, 03:04
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Bible dont interest me at all..
I always like to learn,so I guess even the Holy Book fits into that category.
No quotes though.
Anyone?
'The one which is without sin cast the first stone " doe`s it for me
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If you're interested in Islam, you ought to at least understand something of Christianity, since that's where it came from...

The Bible's always a good place to start with that.
See above!The beginning and the end
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  #353  
Old 29.10.2010, 03:05
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Cannut, do you want me to show you how to use the multi-quote feature?
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  #354  
Old 29.10.2010, 03:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I wouldn't bank on that. It's not unknown for people to cherry pick quotes out of context in order to support whatever they're saying.

Of course, it doesn't help that the Koran - like other holy books - is full of violence and exhortations to sort out unbelievers. That doesn't mean, of course, that Muslims are going to go out and behead every kafir they see any more than Christians are going to go out and execute their local pharmacist for witchcraft.

But it does make it a bit awkward when someone comes along and starts quoting the nasty bits of your holy book and throwing them back at you...
Amen To that
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  #355  
Old 29.10.2010, 03:17
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Schweinsteiger is a very turkish name, from eastern Anatolya I believe
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  #356  
Old 29.10.2010, 11:45
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Cannut, do you want me to show you how to use the multi-quote feature?
Please do
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  #357  
Old 30.10.2010, 19:58
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11464025 I've been getting into Dutch politics ever since running into some dutch english blog that got me all interested. And I'm the most left-wing guy most can meet, but even I think this is wrong. Yes he spreads lies and falsehoods, but I think that should be his right.
Sure, it's like a bad habit...when someone is criticizing Islam and its teachings, it's called racism/hate speech etc, but when Muslims mock us, call us immoral, it's free speech !

Anyone who's visited a Muslim country knows that Islamic societies are backward, regressive and reactionary in just about every possible way: scientifically, technologically, politically, socially etc. This isn't prejudice or misunderstandings, but a deliberate and direct consequence of authoritative teachings in Islam.

Obviously, this wont appear to be a problem for the politically correct minds who think that Islam is perfect, that Muslims are also perfect, and that its clearly a sham to all those who witness the vast differences between the West and the Middle-East.

Of course the Leftists don't care about Islam's failure to deal with basic human rights. They don't care that it doesn't recognize equal rights for women, homosexuals, the right to convert from Islam to another religion, or the right to criticize Islam, the Qu'ran, or Muhammad. Where Islam reins, basic human rights are restricted in the name of a primitive ideology.

Because of political correctnesss, free speech is also on trial, not just Wilders !
Criminalizing free thought and speech is not something that happens in a free society, but the Leftists are probably trying to follow the example of the Muslims they protect so much. If this is where the PC 'sensitivity' trend is headed, its more than just displeasing...its pernicious and downright dangerous !
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  #358  
Old 30.10.2010, 23:31
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Sorry, but before posting, I tried... really tried, to read the thread, but... but.... but.... it was just way too long.

I did pick up a couple of brilliant posts from Nil and Maximus about the fear of the unknown, and how education is required.

It seems to me we are on a downward spiral that follows a circular conceptual path that looks something like this:



(1) Misconception -> (2) Misrepresentation -> (3) Disinformation -> (4) Suspicion -> (5) Fear -> (6) Violence



As Nil pointed out, one process of reversing the downward spiral is education. Catch the problem at (1), (2) and (3), before it progresses to (4), (5) and (6). I add that communication and discourse would have to play a large role in this. As Maximus and someone else pointed out, the unknown is the cause of the suspicion. So I posit, truth be told...


Typical public discourse on this topic have a tendency to drop off at the fruitless argument of "Your extremists are worse than our extremists". I think this is a conversation killer. So how about we focus on our own radicals, eh?

If we are really serious about living with one another, I think we need a humungous degree of openness about all this.

I noticed how AliAdnan expressed shock after seeing Fitna, particularly how it portrayed Islam in a way that is nothing like the Islam he has been taught, and how he expressed an urge to set the record straight as far as the Islam that he knows. I also took notice of Nil's indictment of "crazy" (?) imams. You don't know how much I appreciated both your sentiments. Thank you. On my part, my heart sank at the realization that a lot of atrocious acts are being committed in Iraq and Afghanistan by people using Christian scripture to fuel their satanic rampage. I'm so sorry.

Going back to the topic of Geert Wilders. I really question the wisdom of censuring someone like him. In fact, I'm not so sure if radical imams should be censured either. On the contrary, what I would like to do is to put them ALL on trial!

I actually had a couple of questions:

1) Prosecutors have asked the court to drop the case against Wilders on the technicality that he was not disparaging people or a religion, but an ideology. Has he been acquitted? If so, double-jeopardy would prevent him from being tried again unless he is proven to be attacking people.

2) Since this case set a precedent, couldn't looney imams also be put on trial?

3) Can anyone think of a charge against leftist politicians for making such a mess with their social engineering programs to the point where normal people can no longer even talk to other normal people anymore?

4) Do you think the Pope would mind going on trial for the benefit of mankind?

I say, run them ALL through the crucible. If they pass, then they are golden. If they fail, then justice be done and truth be told.
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  #359  
Old 31.10.2010, 17:21
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Sorry, but before posting, I tried... really tried, to read the thread, but... but.... but.... it was just way too long.
I know how you feel, I feel exactly the same about your post.
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  #360  
Old 04.11.2010, 18:39
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Re your questions:

1)
No, he has not been acquitted, the court has been ruled to be prejudiced and therefore the whole procedure must be again (oh jay, another trial).

Furthemore, it is not a technicality, the reason quoted is a fundamental element of the hate-speech article. So, double jeopardy does not apply here. Furthemore, there is always the possibility to appeal (which is interesting, because the appeal would be ruled by the court that ordered his prosecution in the first place).

2) No, since they are protected by the freedom of religion as laid down in the constitution.

3) Social engineering programs are (normally) based on law, only in case the high court can judge a law unconstitutional, the law becomes invalid. However, under trias politica law makers cannot be prosecuted for the laws they make as they (are supposed to) reflect the will of the people..Would be nice though.

4) It would make damn fine television......

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Sorry<snip>I actually had a couple of questions:

1) Prosecutors have asked the court to drop the case against Wilders on the technicality that he was not disparaging people or a religion, but an ideology. Has he been acquitted? If so, double-jeopardy would prevent him from being tried again unless he is proven to be attacking people.


2) Since this case set a precedent, couldn't looney imams also be put on trial?

3) Can anyone think of a charge against leftist politicians for making such a mess with their social engineering programs to the point where normal people can no longer even talk to other normal people anymore?

4) Do you think the Pope would mind going on trial for the benefit of mankind?

I say, run them ALL through the crucible. If they pass, then they are golden. If they fail, then justice be done and truth be told.
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