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  #21  
Old 04.10.2010, 22:36
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You know what: Watch it yourself and decide weather or not this is spreading hate or not:
I watched it as soon it was out time ago and I really appreciate how this guy want to protect his country and keep it for the Dutch, but personally I believe this movie is complete nonsense, and totally biased. He takes some phrases from Quraan out of context and just paste them the way he want as well as showing speeches from extremist Muslims, which I am sure is not what the majority of Muslims agree on.
Taking phrases out of context is truly misleading and biased...as one could say with this movie for example:


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  #22  
Old 04.10.2010, 22:45
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Has he been found guilty yet?
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  #23  
Old 05.10.2010, 00:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Has he been found guilty yet?
Of course he has. We're just waiting for Due Process to catch up.
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  #24  
Old 05.10.2010, 08:08
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

geert wilders is just another sick guy playing on low instincts.
Basically he's fighting for freedom of speech but wants to prevent the muslims in netherlands to practice their religion. I saw his "movie" Fitna...seriously i was expecting much more in terms of criticism. This is just a collage of video footage from different lunatic imams in the world and a copy paste of coran surats taken out of context. He is really fighting for a "white" netherlands, and his claim "i am fighting Islam not muslims" is just ridiculous.
I really blame the muslims for giving him so much attention.
The judge in the trial is doomed: if he condemns the guy he will be a martyre, if he discharges him it will upset the muslims and the Wilders will get wilder.

I find it interesting to see in the same individual this extreme hatred for muslims and extreme idolatry for Israel. I feel very confident labeling him as a fascist.
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Old 05.10.2010, 08:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

As much as Wilders is a "nutcase" he has his followers, why? probably fear mongering but still after living 6 years in NL I sort of see why it has been so easy for Wilders to get an audience. With thousands of asylum seakers, and with a clear problem of some immigrant youth groups terrorizing the streets of the big cities (namely Rotterdam, I lived there and it can get scary) and vandalism and then with the last drop and the death of Theo van Gogh, well, people fell for it. Is he right? no, are there problems? yes, can they be fixed without extremism? I sure hope so.
A bit OT but, somebody mentioned dual Dutch citizenship? It is not possible unless, you come from a country from which you can not renounce your citizenship (i.e. Mexico) or if you stand to lose a big amount of money (source:www.ind.nl, and my own experience).
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Old 05.10.2010, 08:46
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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geert wilders is just another sick guy playing on low instincts.
Basically he's fighting for freedom of speech but wants to prevent the muslims in netherlands to practice their religion. I saw his "movie" Fitna...seriously i was expecting much more in terms of criticism. This is just a collage of video footage from different lunatic imams in the world and a copy paste of coran surats taken out of context. He is really fighting for a "white" netherlands, and his claim "i am fighting Islam not muslims" is just ridiculous.
I really blame the muslims for giving him so much attention.
The judge in the trial is doomed: if he condemns the guy he will be a martyre, if he discharges him it will upset the muslims and the Wilders will get wilder.

I find it interesting to see in the same individual this extreme hatred for muslims and extreme idolatry for Israel. I feel very confident labeling him as a fascist.

Out of curisoity, can you explain exactly how these statements were taken out of context? Or, if not, is there anyone out there who has read the Koran who can explain the real meanings these statements?
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  #27  
Old 05.10.2010, 08:47
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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And I'm the most left-wing guy most can meet, but ....... Yes he spreads lies and falsehoods, but I think that should be his right.
Of course you do, many communists think the same.
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  #28  
Old 05.10.2010, 09:26
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

When you have a look on some group of immigrants and what costs they cause to the social aide, he is right. Also Sarazin did point out that there is a problem to solve. When you have a look on the rassism point, why are many christians and moslems fleeing from Islamic countries and christians murdered in Islamic countries? Also in France there are French people forced to move out by foreigners in areas with high numbers of immigrants from Islamic countries. Moslems praing on the street in Paris block roads and residents acces to their house.

Rasism and hate cuts both ways, i belive it is more the other way around and that some group of immigrants just ask for too much.
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  #29  
Old 05.10.2010, 09:29
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Out of curisoity, can you explain exactly how these statements were taken out of context? Or, if not, is there anyone out there who has read the Koran who can explain the real meanings these statements?
I will give it a shot, but for the argument, I will use a passage of the bible. A part of Deuteronomy 22:

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Marriage Violations

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [b] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. 30 A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed.
There is nothing to misunderstand here, the text is crystal clear. So how can you take it out of context? I mean, it is in the bible and Christians say they follow the bible, right? Yet, while I am quite sure that there are plenty of people not exactly faithful and not all brides virgins, I never heard of a stoning in my very Catholic home area...

So the out of context argument is actually not a "textual out of context": The religious texts of all major religions are thousands of years old. They all included guidance for your life based on the reality of life some three thousand years ago. Today, religious folks do not follow them stupidly, but interpret their meaning and relevance for their lives. Just as Christians hardly stone unfaithful daughters anymore, do 99% of the Muslims not spread hate against people of other religions. Yes, there are some nutcases - unfortunately some of them not only in Saudi Arabia, but here as well. The one who killed Theo van Gogh out of a religious craze has made the lives of 1.5 Million Muslims in the Netherland far more problematic and is the real source for the political success of Wilders.

These crazies are the ones who do not interpret these texts, but blindly follow them. And if they attack us, we know how to treat enemies:
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10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
(Deuteronomy 20) Sounds a bit like Iraq to me, although the text does not explicitly says something about oil fields... you see, then you need to start to interpret it.
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  #30  
Old 05.10.2010, 09:39
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

"comparing the Koran with Hitler's Mein Kampf"
Has anyone here ever read a part of or the whole thing?

I´ve often asked some people I know about the Koran and the current interpretation by some Islamic extremists, and they tsaid hat violence is not even mentioned or anything out of order for that matter.
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Old 05.10.2010, 09:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I will not comment on the hate speech/free speech part as I know that my views are not compatible with the US definition of it any way and we could discuss it for ages as Jim has lined out.

But I have the feeling that Wilders comes across a bit like the SVP here. I have lived in the Netherlands before and I can tell you that he is very different in many ways: He is not a xenophobe who hates everything foreign and wants to keep his home country to the Dutch the way Blochers guys are arguing... he has spend some times in Israel (and loves the country), has a Hungarian wife and has otherwise pretty normal standpoints... but he has a real Islam thing going on and as far as I know is the trial on his movie - which makes the point that all Muslims are terrorists.

You know what: Watch it yourself and decide weather or not this is spreading hate or not:

Couldn't resist the Blocher jibe could you? The next time there's a debate on medieval witch hunts or the formation of the KKK, I'll remember to play my "let's get the anti-SVP snipe" card out and trump you.
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Old 05.10.2010, 09:47
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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"comparing the Koran with Hitler's Mein Kampf"
Has anyone here ever read a part of or the whole thing?
Well, we did say the guy was a nutcase. Any extremism is wrong I guess.
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  #33  
Old 05.10.2010, 09:48
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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"comparing the Koran with Hitler's Mein Kampf"
Has anyone here ever read a part of or the whole thing?
.
Both books are penned by maniacs. They are not worth reading it and wasting time.

Thanks for the groan, i am collecting groans, so please press the groan button for usefull information too!

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  #34  
Old 05.10.2010, 09:55
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

In the other video the reporter asks him whether he would ban minarets "like the Swiss did" , he ofcourse said yes "at least they had a referendum about it" and that he is against banning books, BUT he would ban the Koran as it promotes violence!

So now I have to do some googling, if you shall excuse me..
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Old 05.10.2010, 09:56
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I will give it a shot, but for the argument, I will use a passage of the bible. A part of Deuteronomy 22:



There is nothing to misunderstand here, the text is crystal clear. So how can you take it out of context? I mean, it is in the bible and Christians say they follow the bible, right? Yet, while I am quite sure that there are plenty of people not exactly faithful and not all brides virgins, I never heard of a stoning in my very Catholic home area...

So the out of context argument is actually not a "textual out of context": The religious texts of all major religions are thousands of years old. They all included guidance for your life based on the reality of life some three thousand years ago. Today, religious folks do not follow them stupidly, but interpret their meaning and relevance for their lives. Just as Christians hardly stone unfaithful daughters anymore, do 99% of the Muslims not spread hate against people of other religions. Yes, there are some nutcases - unfortunately some of them not only in Saudi Arabia, but here as well. The one who killed Theo van Gogh out of a religious craze has made the lives of 1.5 Million Muslims in the Netherland far more problematic and is the real source for the political success of Wilders.

These crazies are the ones who do not interpret these texts, but blindly follow them. And if they attack us, we know how to treat enemies:
(Deuteronomy 20) Sounds a bit like Iraq to me, although the text does not explicitly says something about oil fields... you see, then you need to start to interpret it.
Thanks for the informative response. Just goes to show that none of these religious texts (Bible, Koran etc.) have much relevance in the modern world. It's hardly worth wasting ones time into trying to find meaning and relevance in texts that were written over a thousand years ago. It's rather like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If anything it's worth just reading them for their literary value and use ones own moral compass in order to make sense of life, the universe and everything.
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Old 05.10.2010, 09:57
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Both books are penned by maniacs. Not worth treading it and wasting time.
I thought this thread was meant to spread tolerance...towards EVERYONE. Have some respect please, everybody has the right to believe in what they want as long as they respect others.
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  #37  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:01
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

"Muslims believe that the Qur'an is different from all other books in ways that are impossible for any other book to be, such that similar texts cannot be written by humans. "

I wish someone would explain this to me, but seriously if you agree with this guy than maybe don´t even try.
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  #38  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:01
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Couldn't resist the Blocher jibe could you? The next time there's a debate on medieval witch hunts or the formation of the KKK, I'll remember to play my "let's get the anti-SVP snipe" card out and trump you.
To be honest, I did not want to say anything against the SVP at all this time - I wanted to make the point that Wilders ideology is far stronger - and the situation in the Netherlands is actually "worse" than here. The thread made the impression to me that "what are they on about, we have the same here with the anti-minarett posters and some islamic culture centers" - no we do not.
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Old 05.10.2010, 10:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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A bit OT but, somebody mentioned dual Dutch citizenship? It is not possible unless, you come from a country from which you can not renounce your citizenship (i.e. Mexico) or if you stand to lose a big amount of money (source:www.ind.nl, and my own experience).
I did. Another exception is if you have US citizenship because you're married to US citizen. Our experience. And several Dutch people have told me that Wilders' wife still holds two passports (Dutch and perhaps Hungarian), and I've no reason to doubt them, but I've not checked this out myself.

For the rest, most of the Dutch people that I know (husband's family, our friends in the Netherlands), find Wilders to be an extremist and troublemaker. But obviously, he does appeal to 1.5 (I think) million Dutch citizens and his party won 24 seats in the last election. And certainly, when the economy is having problems, his rhetoric appears to provide solution and action to those people.
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Old 05.10.2010, 10:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Being Dutch and looking at Wilders PVV party I always get the feeling that here in CH he would be in the middle of the political spectrum, not on the far right...
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