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  #41  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:06
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

"The Qur’anic text seems to have no beginning, middle, or end, its nonlinear structure being akin to a web or net."

So, basically, I guess the only reasoning for statements such as his is that everyone, and I mean everyone, can interpret the Koran every which way they want!
Thatīs why itīs hard for me to understand pros and cons about the whole book issue, I simply canīt get a simple answer as to what exactly is written in there!
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  #42  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:13
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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But obviously, he does appeal to 1.5 (I think) million Dutch citizens and his party won 24 seats in the last election. And certainly, when the economy is having problems, his rhetoric appears to provide solution and action to those people.
True, especially people not well educated and of course a few educated anr rich
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  #43  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:14
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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"The Qur’anic text seems to have no beginning, middle, or end, its nonlinear structure being akin to a web or net."

So, basically, I guess the only reasoning for statements such as his is that everyone, and I mean everyone, can interpret the Koran every which way they want!
Thatīs why itīs hard for me to understand pros and cons about the whole book issue, I simply canīt get a simple answer as to what exactly is written in there!
Where do you want to get with these statements?
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  #44  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:15
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Being Dutch and looking at Wilders PVV party I always get the feeling that here in CH he would be in the middle of the political spectrum, not on the far right...
From his rhetorics and appearance - after all he can give better speeches than pretty much the entire Swiss Bundesrat - or any other Swiss politician that comes to my mind. But his statements in the line of "15% of all Muslims in Europe are not violent yet - but support terroristic ideals" are a bit stronger than the simple "I do not want to see Burkas in Switzerland" standpoints.

He is smart - and dangerous. He manages to package many ideas into a wrapper even I as a relative progressive person can immdediately support: He talks about the "Leitkultur" discussion, he says that we need to defend the values of our constitutions - and I am fully agreeing. And suddenly he says something like "Muslim women wearing headscarves (I believe he calls them "rags" instead) should pay 1000 Euro tax for visual polution", or "I suggest to change the first paragraoh of our constitution into "The Netherlands have a dominant culture of Christianity, Judaism and Humanism, all other cultures need to subordinate themselves in this value system"...

So yes: He sometimes manages to speak for five minutes and I am entirely agreeing - and suddenly shows his own definition of tolerance again. Nearly tricking me into believing that he has an honest agenda is something the Swiss right-wing has never managed.
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  #45  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:19
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Thatīs why itīs hard for me to understand pros and cons about the whole book issue, I simply canīt get a simple answer as to what exactly is written in there!
You could try reading it, there are translations.

I'm in two minds on this one, free speech is good and all, and I'm not for any book or religion having special protection, but this guy is a real manipulative little git.

I think it's the hypocrisy that really gets me, as pointed out earlier, for every line they find in the koran that's distasteful, you'll find a similar line in someone else's little holy book.

People have moved on despite their religions and assuming that just because someone is born into a faith, they must automatically be a rabid fundamentalist is utterly unjust.
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  #46  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:20
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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From his rhetorics and appearance - after all he can give better speeches than pretty much the entire Swiss Bundesrat - or any other Swiss politician that comes to my mind. But his statements in the line of "15% of all Muslims in Europe are not violent yet - but support terroristic ideals" are a bit stronger than the simple "I do not want to see Burkas in Switzerland" standpoints.

He is smart - and dangerous. He manages to package many ideas into a wrapper even I as a relative progressive person can immdediately support: He talks about the "Leitkultur" discussion, he says that we need to defend the values of our constitutions - and I am fully agreeing. And suddenly he says something like "Muslim women wearing headscarves (I believe he calls them "rags" instead) should pay 1000 Euro tax for visual polution", or "I suggest to change the first paragraoh of our constitution into "The Netherlands have a dominant culture of Christianity, Judaism and Humanism, all other cultures need to subordinate themselves in this value system"...

So yes: He sometimes manages to speak for five minutes and I am entirely agreeing - and suddenly shows his own definition of tolerance again. Nearly tricking me into believing that he has an honest agenda is something the Swiss right-wing has never managed.
I have to agree with you on this one, but simply because when he talks he kinda makes sense, he elaborates and sticks to what he believes in.
However, extremists just simply scare me, to be honest, and in any way I try not to be one, so if he continues to really talk down on the whole religion than somewhere down the line he will definitely lose this little common sense that he has.
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  #47  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:22
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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And suddenly he says something like "Muslim women wearing headscarves (I believe he calls them "rags" instead) should pay 1000 Euro tax for visual polution".
Aren't they forbidden in France already ?

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, or "I suggest to change the first paragraoh of our constitution into "The Netherlands have a dominant culture of Christianity, Judaism and Humanism, all other cultures need to subordinate themselves in this value system"....
Like Israel ?
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  #48  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:22
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You could try reading it, there are translations.

I'm in two minds on this one, free speech is good and all, and I'm not for any book or religion having special protection, but this guy is a real manipulative little git.

I think it's the hypocrisy that really gets me, as pointed out earlier, for every line they find in the koran that's distasteful, you'll find a similar line in someone else's little holy book.

People have moved on despite their religions and assuming that just because someone is born into a faith, they must automatically be a rabid fundamentalist is utterly unjust.
I just tried reading it, and like I said earlier it can be tricky understanding it. But I guess that kinda goes both ways - the Bible can also be missunderstood if you ask me.
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  #49  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:23
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

I am not sure why I answer...

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"Muslims believe that the Qur'an is different from all other books in ways that are impossible for any other book to be, such that similar texts cannot be written by humans. "

I wish someone would explain this to me, but seriously if you agree with this guy than maybe donīt even try.
In Islam it says that the Quran came on earth from the heaven. Apparently, no one beside God wrote the book. It cames down to Mohammed.

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"The Qur’anic text seems to have no beginning, middle, or end, its nonlinear structure being akin to a web or net."

So, basically, I guess the only reasoning for statements such as his is that everyone, and I mean everyone, can interpret the Koran every which way they want!
Thatīs why itīs hard for me to understand pros and cons about the whole book issue, I simply canīt get a simple answer as to what exactly is written in there!
Nope, you didn't understand. The Bible is a story about Jesus from his birth to his death and some relatives. The Quran is a book of rules about what is good and what is bad. Most of the rules in the book are having roots from the Bible and the Torah.

Mohammed never rejected the other two religions. The only difference is Jesus was not the son of God but a prophete like all the others. The angels are the same and apparently Marie was a virgin as well.

The Bible has been written by human who did follow the Christ. The Quran came from God Himself.
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  #50  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:26
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I am not sure why I answer...



In Islam it says that the Quran came on earth from the heaven. Apparently, no one beside God wrote the book. It cames down to Mohammed.



Nope, you didn't understand. The Bible is a story about Jesus from his birth to his death and some relatives. The Quran is a book of rules about what is good and what is bad. Most of the rules in the book are having roots from the Bible and the Torah.

Mohammed never rejected they other two religions. The only difference is Jesus was not the son of God but a prophete like all the others. The angels are the same and apparently Marie was a virgin as well.

The Bible has been written by human who did follow the Christ. The Quran came from God Himself.
Finally someone making sense..
Thank you for elaborating.
(donīt forget to groan at one of my posts)
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  #51  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The Bible has been written by human who did follow the Christ. The Quran came from God Himself.
I'm pretty sure many christians will tell you the bible was also divinely inspired and infallible.
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  #52  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:29
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I'm pretty sure many christians will tell you the bible was also divinely inspired and infallible.
Bible has issues of itīs own, donīt even go there.
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  #53  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:29
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Finally someone making sense..
Thank you for elaborating.
(donīt forget to groan at one of my posts)
Here, happy?
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  #54  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:30
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Aren't they forbidden in France already ?
No, that is a Burka - I thought he was talking about the pretty normal headscarve... the one that shows the face.

A good example for my last post: I can agree to minutes of talking including his defence of the freedom of speech and he speaks so well that he is interesting to listen to. But suddenly he suggests to lock up "terror suspects" who did not do anything yet - based on what the intelligence service thinks they said. "Administrative detention" based on hearsay -What freedom of speech is that exactly?

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  #55  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:32
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I'm pretty sure many christians will tell you the bible was also divinely inspired and infallible.
Maybe a part of it, but what about Marc, John, Mathieu and thing? They wrote their part years after Jesus was dead...

But ya, we shouldn't go there.... it could be very interesting actually!
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  #56  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:32
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Here, happy?
Yes thank you. Something just didnīt seem right.
Now back on the topic please, we donīt want to be grounded, do we?
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  #57  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:36
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Bible has issues of itīs own, donīt even go there.
Don't even go where?

To say that the bible is somehow different than the quran in this context is just wrong.
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  #58  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:37
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

"Fitna"

if someone wants to watch, I havenīt seen it yet, so I canīt wait to see and hear what he actually said.

Go to you tube if you want to watch this..

Last edited by Lana K.; 05.10.2010 at 10:53. Reason: the video is too brutal!! Iīm sorry, I didnīt know, honestly..
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  #59  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:37
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Maybe a part of it, but what about Marc, John, Mathieu and thing? They wrote their part years after Jesus was dead...
Easy: Jesus is not God, he is God's son. God is a trinity of father, son and spirit and the apostels were all filled by the holy spirit on pentecost, so their writing is just as good as if it was written by Jesus himself (which no part of the bible is...)

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And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language
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  #60  
Old 05.10.2010, 10:38
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Maybe a part of it, but what about Marc, John, Mathieu and thing? They wrote their part years after Jesus was dead...

But ya, we shouldn't go there.... it could be very interesting actually!
I don't follow theology too closely, it's all bunk to me. but it's still divinely guided. (according to christians, of course)
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