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  #61  
Old 05.10.2010, 11:39
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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No, that is a Burka - I thought he was talking about the pretty normal headscarve... the one that shows the face.
I know, I more wanted to make the point that what Wilders is doing in Holland is not much different from what is happening in other countries as for instance France, Belgium or Denmark. Holland however has a historically very strong left wing and leftish media who basically make a big deal of whatever Wilders does. But Wilders's ideas are not too different from those in other european countries....
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  #62  
Old 05.10.2010, 11:45
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Im sorry for posting that Fitna video now..
Those few first scenes were enough for me.
Please let me know if you want me to remove the video from the post.

Last edited by Lana K.; 05.10.2010 at 11:54. Reason: I removed the video.
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  #63  
Old 05.10.2010, 12:12
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

I haven't watched the video, but I will when I get home tonight, just to inform myself. I don't agree with what this guy says but I do think he is allowed to have any crazy opinion he wants, so long as he doesn't act on it or incite others to do so.

I have however heard a lot of what this guy has to say and I can only wonder why no journalist asks him what he hopes to achieve with the headscarf tax.

I think I can guess what he really wants to achieve, but I would like to hear what sort of answer he could give, surely only one that would out him as unfairly targeting a minority.

There is a youth element in The Netherlands who stem from countries which are mostly islamic, who give many muslims a bad name. They are a minority of course but they are highly conspicuous and the problem is that no one ever notices a clean toilet - the majority are behaving in a decent way, especially the women who would be hit with this clothing tax.
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Old 05.10.2010, 12:18
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

To cut to the chase, Wilders seems to have a problem with the 000's of poorly educated, under achieving North Africans who live in the Cities crime-filled ghettos. Now he could be honest and say that he generally hates North Africans, making him a racist or he could hide behind the smokescreen of Islam and thus give his bigotry some sort of ideological dimension.
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Old 05.10.2010, 12:31
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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To cut to the chase, Wilders seems to have a problem with the 000's of poorly educated, under achieving North Africans who live in the Cities crime-filled ghettos. Now he could be honest and say that he generally hates North Africans, making him a racist or he could hide behind the smokescreen of Islam and thus give his bigotry some sort of ideological dimension.
Good point.
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  #66  
Old 05.10.2010, 12:33
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Wilders seems to have a problem with the 000's of poorly educated, under achieving North Africans who live in the Cities crime-filled ghettos.
You don't ?
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Old 05.10.2010, 12:58
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You don't ?
I think the problem is people creating chaos and violence regardless of their race/nationality.
I get you Basp, I do. I lived in Rotterdam scared of walking at night cause I did not live in the best neighborhood and sick of finding junkies at my doorstep, annoyed at insults of why I was wearing a skirt and riding a bicycle because I looked like a ***** that I should go back home and cook for my husband. But that was a tiny group of people, not a whole community.
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:01
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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annoyed at insults of why I was wearing a skirt and riding a bicycle because I looked like a *****
And that's what separates these 'muslims' from the rest of us ordinary men. We sneak a look and smile internally. And generally encourage such behaviour by women.

The desperately insecure and emasculated man is a bizarre species. And the reason for many of the world's problems.
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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And that's what separates these 'muslims' from the rest of us ordinary men. We sneak a look and smile internally. And generally encourage such behaviour by women.
I was trying not to make generalizations but what I posted were things that happened to me (and/or friends of mine)...
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:19
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I think the problem is people creating chaos and violence regardless of their race/nationality.
I agree with this point. There will always be people (youth) causing chaos and voilence, the issue is more how does the culture deal with this ? As an extreme case, Holland of course also has some sort of neo-nazi group (like CH, DE, AT etc) but the culture is such that this is strongly suppressed by the educational and political system.
This suppression of undesired behaviour is insufficient as far as the north african youths in the big cities is concerned. Wilders blames this on the Islamic culture of these youth. This is why he claims to be against Islamic culture but not the Islam as a religion.
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:23
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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IThis suppression of undesired behaviour is insufficient as far as the north african youths in the big cities is concerned.
This is true, when doing my PhD a colleague also did a study on the incidence of psychiatric pathology in this group of young people and there was an increased incidence when compared to other groups. I think this problem could be tackled by more integration preparedness and facilitation, but of course I am no expert. Everyone goes through a struggle when trying to adapt to a new culture, granted...why some have more problems beats my social science knowledge.

Last edited by Angela-74; 05.10.2010 at 13:30. Reason: mistake
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  #72  
Old 05.10.2010, 13:25
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The desperately insecure and emasculated man is a bizarre species. And the reason for many of the world's problems.
If you look at the more strict religions (like Islam but also Jewism (is this a word ?)), all of them have quite similar rules as to how women should behave so that man should not become tempted. For instance wearing a burka or headscarf (not showing hair in public) is very similar to wearing a wig (as done in Jewish religion). Sometimes I wonder whether Jews and Muslims realise how similar they are.....

There's quite a lot of sex and voilence in both the bible and the Koran. I myself am not religious, when I want some old fashioned sex and violence I don't read the bible but put on an old (very old ) Schwarzenegger tape
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:28
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Everyone goes through a struggle when trying to adapt to a new culture, granted...why some have more problems beats me social science knowledge.
Me too, I struggle getting used to the Swiss culture here. Think I'll beat me up some old ladies later today
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:31
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Me too, I struggle getting used to the Swiss culture here. Think I'll beat me up some old ladies later today
Please do not tar the Dutch image...we have enough with Wilders
I feel a bit Dutch myself maar een beetje
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:35
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I think the problem is people creating chaos and violence regardless of their race/nationality.
I get you Basp, I do. I lived in Rotterdam scared of walking at night cause I did not live in the best neighborhood and sick of finding junkies at my doorstep, annoyed at insults of why I was wearing a skirt and riding a bicycle because I looked like a ***** that I should go back home and cook for my husband. But that was a tiny group of people, not a whole community.
Just to balance it a bit: When I lived in the Netherlands, I had more trouble with Dutch anti-social teenagers throwing in my Asian classmates windows. I cannot explain it with anything else than racism while they were no neo-nazis or anything organized. They must be in the middle of their 20s and I guess I know what they vote.
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:47
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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If you look at the more strict religions (like Islam but also Jewism (is this a word ?)), all of them have quite similar rules as to how women should behave so that man should not become tempted. For instance wearing a burka or headscarf (not showing hair in public) is very similar to wearing a wig (as done in Jewish religion). Sometimes I wonder whether Jews and Muslims realise how similar they are.....

There's quite a lot of sex and voilence in both the bible and the Koran. I myself am not religious, when I want some old fashioned sex and violence I don't read the bible but put on an old (very old ) Schwarzenegger tape
What is amusing, though, is that very often the biggest noise is made by people who don't actively practise the religion!

You can bet that most of the muslim lads who abuse women in the street haven't been in a mosque for years, probably drink beer, would shag a woman if they had the opportunity.

Their more pious brothers or fathers, on the other hand, might hold some pretty odious opinions (most muslims I've spoken to do, unfortunately, once you get past the dinner-party-islam conversations), but would have enough respect for the dignity of a woman to not actually express those opinions openly.

It's a bit like the way some people (Geert Wilders, for example) bang on about the "Christian culture of Europe". Given that most church groups in Switzerland opposed the minaret ban and that church groups in other parts of Europe often make active attempts to engage with the muslim minorities in their countries, one wonders how many of the we-have-to-preserve-christian-culture-at-all-costs are actually practising Christians...
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:48
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Being Dutch and looking at Wilders PVV party I always get the feeling that here in CH he would be in the middle of the political spectrum, not on the far right...
in the middle of the political spectrum with positions like: key principles in foreign policy are dutch interests and the fight against Islam; Immigration ban (full or for 5 years, depending on source..??) for people from islamic countries; no new mosques; no koran, head rag tax...yeah right
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:49
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Unfortunately, his analysis is different; according to W, the fact that they cause trouble is directly related to their religion. In Wilders' world Islam is the (new) enemy that must be stopped and these youths are the front soldiers.

Personally, I find it rather hysterical. Yes, Van Gogh was murdered by some muslim-fundamentalistic loon (with a hormone induced inferiority complex). And yes, Wilders is the only politician in the Netherlands that is surroundded by bodyguards 24/7 because of the muslim death threats he receives (which is a bloody shame).

But to claim that NL is on the verge of the introduction of sharia law is way over the top. Roughly, 5% of the Dutch population is muslim and 80% of the muslims live in the 4 big cities in the western part of NL. The rest of the Dutch population is hardly ever confronted with headscarfs and the like. Let alone that muslims have any kind of political influence.

Probably an important reason why W gets the votes is that the original inhabitants of the old parts of the cities, saw their neighbourhood "flooded" with low educated immigrants that refused to integrate, who were pampered by the (left wing) politicians. When they questioned the pampering, or when people questioned the blessings of the multi-cultural society, the political elite called them a bunch of racists that should stfu.

Wilders thrives on the anti-political elite protest vote.

On top of that quite often some non muslim PC-do-gooders deem certain things to be hurtfull for muslims (without asking the muslims concerned first) and take action to forbid those things. Especially, when it concerns things that are close to the local tradition (x-mass trees and the like), people get angry and blame muslims, who didn't ask for it in the first place.

Another reason of his popularity is that his political views are rather left wing when it comes to social security, health care, care for the elderlty and so on.

On the court case itself: initially it was decided not to prosecute. However, the Amsterdam court overruled this and ordered the prosecution of W.

Personally, I don't think he will be convicted (in the end). The courts in NL have always been very restrictive when it comes to "hatespeech" and "inciting violence". Especially, since he is a politician spreading his ideas in a non violent way through the political process.

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To cut to the chase, Wilders seems to have a problem with the 000's of poorly educated, under achieving North Africans who live in the Cities crime-filled ghettos. Now he could be honest and say that he generally hates North Africans, making him a racist or he could hide behind the smokescreen of Islam and thus give his bigotry some sort of ideological dimension.
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  #79  
Old 05.10.2010, 13:54
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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in the middle of the political spectrum with positions like: key principles in foreign policy are dutch interests and the fight against Islam; Immigration ban (full or for 5 years, depending on source..??) for people from islamic countries; no new mosques; no koran, head rag tax...yeah right
No, more in the sense of "let's close the borders for everyone except those few foreigners that we can put to (economical) good use. And we throw them out again when we don't need them. What do you mean 'give them a passport', are you stupid ? After 12 yrs maybe but only if they haven't run a red light"
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Old 05.10.2010, 13:55
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Probably an important reason why W gets the votes is that the original inhabitants of the old parts of the cities, saw their neighbourhood "flooded" with low educated immigrants that refused to integrate, who were pampered by the (left wing) politicians. When they questioned the pampering, or when people questioned the blessings of the multi-cultural society, the political elite called them a bunch of racists that should stfu.

Another reason of his popularity is that his political views are rather left wing when it comes to social security, health care, care for the elderlty and so on.
I believe that a lot of his votes came from around places like Almere - one of the relatively "new cities" where a lot of the Dutch moved to when immigrants came in.

He's conveniently identified a source of blame, and he's left enough to support a lot of the programs that people hold dear.
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