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  #81  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:02
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

This is one of the key reasons why people from other parts of the country voted PVV. They don't necessary agree to the anti immigrant rethoric of W, but think this is the only way in which the Dutch system can be saved.

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I believe that a lot of his votes came from around places like Almere - one of the relatively "new cities" where a lot of the Dutch moved to when immigrants came in.

He's conveniently identified a source of blame, and he's left enough to support a lot of the programs that people hold dear.
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  #82  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:11
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

If you actually see "fitna" (itīs pretty disturbing btw) one can only conclude that Wilders is basing his con-Islam facts on exactly that - facts.
Seeing all those extremists talking about butchering everyone who is not of Islamic faith, or that little girl who is cca 2 years old saying that Jews are pigs etc.. it is easy to draw conclusions, ofcourse no one in their right mind would condone such beliefs.

On the other hand it is more than important to establish another fact and that is - those who kill in order to make amends are simply an exeption and one canīt or shouldnīt base their opinion on the entire religion and millions of believers by calling them ALL criminals and just plain insane.

Anyone who sees his "Fitna" will most probably see more sense in his state of mind (apart from those extremist, that goes without saying)
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  #83  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:11
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I believe that a lot of his votes came from around places like Almere - one of the relatively "new cities" where a lot of the Dutch moved to when immigrants came in.

He's conveniently identified a source of blame, and he's left enough to support a lot of the programs that people hold dear.
Well... no. It should be
"he has conveniently had a source of blame identified for him"

Basically Wilders is cashing in on the legacy of Pim Fortuyn. Pimmetje was just more intelligent (and more fun to watch on TV )
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  #84  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:14
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I agree with this point. There will always be people (youth) causing chaos and voilence, the issue is more how does the culture deal with this ? As an extreme case, Holland of course also has some sort of neo-nazi group (like CH, DE, AT etc) but the culture is such that this is strongly suppressed by the educational and political system.
This suppression of undesired behaviour is insufficient as far as the north african youths in the big cities is concerned. Wilders blames this on the Islamic culture of these youth. This is why he claims to be against Islamic culture but not the Islam as a religion.
This is why the guy is full of shit. Their ain't no Islamic culture! The culture and the way islam is lived is coming from Country culture. The guy in Morocco will do it differently then the one in Turkey. And between the Islam branch as well.

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Their more pious brothers or fathers, on the other hand, might hold some pretty odious opinions (most muslims I've spoken to do, unfortunately, once you get past the dinner-party-islam conversations), but would have enough respect for the dignity of a woman to not actually express those opinions openly.
...
Excuse me? Where the hell do you find those ones? Can't you find a freaking normal pious guy who respect women as much as you do? Because I do know those kind of guys. Maybe you don't have finished looking?
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  #85  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:19
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Excuse me? Where the hell do you find those ones?
I lived and worked in a predominantly Muslim area for five years, predominantly Bangladeshi, but I also spoke to people from all across the Arabic speaking world, Malaysia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey and Albania.

It is only my personal experience. If that doesn't tally with your experience, there isn't much I can do about it.
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  #86  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:24
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Of course you do, many communists think the same.


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I don't know enough about the Dutch interpretation of free speech, am more familiar with the US - but saying things to make others hate and possibly become violent against another group of people (e.g., Muslims) is not protected under free speech.
The US is the worst country to use for such an example because there are no hate speech laws in the US.
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  #87  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:30
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The US is the worst country to use for such an example because there are no hate speech laws in the US.
Which is good for Bush Jr. else he would be in jail now
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  #88  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:32
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Bush said hate speech? I thought people say he committed war crimes or whatever.
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  #89  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:35
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I lived and worked in a predominantly Muslim area for five years, predominantly Bangladeshi, but I also spoke to people from all across the Arabic speaking world, Malaysia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey and Albania.

It is only my personal experience. If that doesn't tally with your experience, there isn't much I can do about it.
You should come over for dinner with your better half. I'll introduce you on the cool ones!
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  #90  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:37
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You should come over for dinner with your better half. I'll introduce you on the cool ones!
don't forget to bring a good bottle of Scotch, Mr. Breakfast !
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  #91  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:39
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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don't forget to bring a good bottle of Scotch, Mr. Breakfast !
I prefer rhum....
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  #92  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:39
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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You should come over for dinner with your better half. I'll introduce you on the cool ones!
Sounds like a plan.

Actually, I met some really sound Muslims, and even the ones with the horrible opinions were (mostly) ok as long as you didn't mention atheism, homosexuality, Israel or America...

I never met a Turk or an Albanian that I didn't like, by the way, if that helps...
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  #93  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Sounds like a plan.

Actually, I met some really sound Muslims, and even the ones with the horrible opinions were (mostly) ok as long as you didn't mention atheism, homosexuality, Israel or America...

I never met a Turk or an Albanian that I didn't like, by the way, if that helps...
I met a lot of Turcs I didn't like.

But I was living with 20 millions of them in one city. Can't like them all!
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  #94  
Old 05.10.2010, 14:45
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Actually, I met some really sound Muslims, and even the ones with the horrible opinions were (mostly) ok as long as you didn't mention atheism, homosexuality, Israel or America...
I always seem to get along with religious people despite being an atheist.
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Old 05.10.2010, 14:46
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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and even the ones with the horrible opinions were (mostly) ok as long as you didn't mention atheism, homosexuality, Israel or America...
If you add communism to the list it sounds very much like Christian conservatives to me...
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  #96  
Old 05.10.2010, 15:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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If you add communism to the list it sounds very much like Christian conservatives to me...
Well I think Muslims don't like "godless communism" as much as Christian conservatives don't.

This dutch guy I talk to on and off on his blog is part of the GreenLeft party and I wonder what he thinks of this trial. I'll certainly ask. It's good I've seen some dutch perspectives here.
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  #97  
Old 15.10.2010, 20:35
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

The prosecutors want to drop the case... the judges are still to decide what to do, though.
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  #98  
Old 15.10.2010, 21:12
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I always seem to get along with religious people despite being an atheist.
Same here Duranda.
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  #99  
Old 16.10.2010, 09:59
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Even better, they demand the aquittal of W on all points. Prosecution powns the court......who ordered them to prosecute in the first place. So, in the end it is a case that (almost) nobody wants...

The only anoying thing is that if the court follows this (which they should in my view), W and his buddies will claim that they have been right al along. "You see! Even the court says that Islam is a totalitarian and fascist religion111!ONE!!!

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The prosecutors want to drop the case... the judges are still to decide what to do, though.

Last edited by E. Neubauten; 16.10.2010 at 09:59. Reason: grammar
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  #100  
Old 16.10.2010, 12:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Interesting discussion. I am Dutch myself and by the way did not vote for him. And 1 day I understand why people vote for him, the other day I cannot.

When I do understand:
1. there are and has been serious issues with Muslims in NL and the rest of the world which make people scared (talking about terrorist attacks and murders like Theo van Gogh). And threats continue to to come - and are made in the name of Islam. Last weekend I was in Berlin and I was scared to go into the Television Tower cause of the Al-Qaida threats. GW is one of the few people daring to say that Islam must be a dangerous religion if these things happen in the name of that same religion. (and is also threatened to death for this and has to live in safe houses for 7 years now!). The majority of the muslims might not support those acts, fact is that after 9/11 quite some muslims in Holland were actually celebrating it and said that America was asking for it. That got on the news (as clean toilets are not seen...)

2. there are annoying issues going on with Morrocan boys in the big cities (like Angela already pointed out, I myself have been living in Amsterdam- West and only after I got myself a big dog was safe outside in the dark). GW is the one that asks for investigation of facts to make clear what everybody already knows but what nobody was allowed to say: it has now become clear that over 50% (!!) of the Morrocan boys of 25 has performed 1 or more criminal acts in NL, but that after 25 the percentage drops dramatically. Now we know this, NL can start taking actions to prevent these actions. People like it when what they think gets outspoken and backed with facts.

3. Due to economic crisis, strong measures have to be made to find money by the government, cuts in healthcare, raising pension age scares the babyboom generation (the biggest generation in Holland, born in the years directly after 1945), who by the way often pay/paid 52% income tax. Thus they might vote for him.

4. Get rid of Burka's: After France, GW wants to get rid of Burka's. I personally support this as a Burka is not a religious item as the head scarf is. It is more about oppressing women. Someone mentioned it here, and I can back this: my husband was in Yeddah some time ago (imagine, if I had the same job I could not have gone there and sell the item, just cause I am a woman) and asked why all women had to wear them. Answer (seriously!): cause 50 years ago we still lived with goats, suddenly became rich but do not have the civility to back this up: if the girls aren't covered we'll jump them. And frankly, I like to see a face when I walk past someone down the street.

When I don't:
1. Look at the guy. WTF happened with his hairdo? Why does a so called serious politician choose to look like an idiot? Listen to the guy. While he often speeches well, he suddenly starts with rag taxes (??). Maybe he is making a link to the beard taxes we had in Holland a couple of 100 years ago but for the rest? He is not logical. Asking for free speech and banishing books? It is either one or the other! Sometimes it looks like there is a disconnection in his head, when he changes from 100% rational speech into saying stupid things.
2. I don;t like the fact that the majority of the muslims are not mentioned. By only mentioning that 50% of that generation, it still means that a vast majority is not criminal. Yet they get the criminal stamp and hey, when I'm criminal why should I not behave criminal?
3. he is not giving solutions, besides banishing, kicking out of the country. Whether you like it of not, there are a lot of muslims living in NL, with the accompanying issues. GW does not give any solution of idea how to deal with that
4. His PVV party is not a party. It is a one member party. He does not allow other members. This makes him a dictator in his own party.

To recap: in NL there are serious issues going on (part of the reason we left) and GW is the one daring to confront the perps, risking his own life by doing that. At the other hand, he is just a populist, with only words and no answers, so voting for him will not make a difference...
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