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  #101  
Old 16.10.2010, 15:59
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Thank you for your interesting and balanced analysis, maximum.

Are you saying, in effect, that the Netherlands needs Geert Wilders, or at least someone like him who, while not being particularly agreeable, is prepared to stick his head above the parapet and say what many other people are thinking?
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  #102  
Old 16.10.2010, 20:57
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Thank you for your interesting and balanced analysis, maximum.

Are you saying, in effect, that the Netherlands needs Geert Wilders, or at least someone like him who, while not being particularly agreeable, is prepared to stick his head above the parapet and say what many other people are thinking?
Yes I agree. This because we have had years of left wing, pampering politicians, which were, so to speak, politically over correct...

But what the Netherlands really needs is someone with a fair mind and a good gut feeling, and the courage to do something about it. Preferably this person is actually from a muslim background (just to rule out the playing of the racist card by the left wing). The answer to guys like GW now is usually: "but the majority of muslims is normal, hardworking etc..". Also that is a fact.

But the funny thing is: I see those normal, hardworking muslims as people, not muslims perse. What I do see as muslims are f.e. the idiots that, in the name of "muslimity" (=Islam), perform terrible acts, or the guys that treat women badly cause the koran tells them to do so. Or hate preaching Imams. I am probably wrong by seeing it this way, but I cannot help it. I mean those guys are in your face. GW never linked islam to terrorist acts, al Qaida did that. This is maybe the reason why a guy like GW sees Islam as a retarded ideology, and the reason behind him saying a muslim is a terrorist. Just because in his world there are people (he calls them Henk and Ingrid, but they may easily be muslim), and muslims.

Must be bad to be a muslim these days. From one side, in the name of your beloved religion, terrorist try to kill people, and from the other side, as a reaction to that, people start yelling that muslims suck because of that.
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  #103  
Old 16.10.2010, 21:59
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Yes I agree. This because we have had years of left wing, pampering politicians, which were, so to speak, politically over correct...

But what the Netherlands really needs is someone with a fair mind and a good gut feeling, and the courage to do something about it. Preferably this person is actually from a muslim background (just to rule out the playing of the racist card by the left wing). The answer to guys like GW now is usually: "but the majority of muslims is normal, hardworking etc..". Also that is a fact.

But the funny thing is: I see those normal, hardworking muslims as people, not muslims perse. What I do see as muslims are f.e. the idiots that, in the name of "muslimity" (=Islam), perform terrible acts, or the guys that treat women badly cause the koran tells them to do so. Or hate preaching Imams. I am probably wrong by seeing it this way, but I cannot help it. I mean those guys are in your face. GW never linked islam to terrorist acts, al Qaida did that. This is maybe the reason why a guy like GW sees Islam as a retarded ideology, and the reason behind him saying a muslim is a terrorist. Just because in his world there are people (he calls them Henk and Ingrid, but they may easily be muslim), and muslims.

Must be bad to be a muslim these days. From one side, in the name of your beloved religion, terrorist try to kill people, and from the other side, as a reaction to that, people start yelling that muslims suck because of that.
The Quran doesn't say to treat women badly, some stupid Imams does.

The problem with what is going on is that those people who does have Islam as a religion got the ''muslim'' sticker put on their forehead by others. So yes, on one side you have some radicals who see religion as everything, who believe those stupid Imams because they don't know anything else, are living their whole life in bad conditions while the Occident got it all. That build anger, rage and hate and make them believe that their faith is to fight against that.

And because of this teeny tiny minuscule % of them, the populations of non-muslim countries who knows nothing about the religion begin to freak out and put all muslims in the same basket.

The problem with this ''way over the top'' reaction, it brings other muslims who wasn't that radical to become more radical and want to fight more to defend themselves against the hate and rejections.

The only way to fight against radicalism and terrorism is education. From both side.
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  #104  
Old 16.10.2010, 22:24
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Absolutely. There are some extreme forms of evangelical Christianism- even in mainstream USA (creationists, etc) and the UK (Plymouth brethren, etc). It would be very simple for Muslims to use them to illustrate what Christianism is like.

BTW I am not religious at all, but I see no more reason to respect or fear my Christian friends and family to my Muslim friends and family - neither of whom are extremists of any kind. If we tried harder to respect our fellow Muslims of the 'normal' kind, it would then be much easier to fight against the more extreme versions and such aspects as female genital mutilation, etc, in some part of the Islamic world. Turkey, thanks to Attaturk (sorry ab, spelling) is a great example of a Islam country with secular principles - a very difficult balancing act.
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  #105  
Old 16.10.2010, 22:31
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The Quran doesn't say to treat women badly, some stupid Imams does.

....

The only way to fight against radicalism and terrorism is education. From both side.
I understand the koran does not tell them, meant to say they say that the koran telles them to...

You are right about education, but not just that. I think Islam could use some kind of a split. Fact is that, because there are so many muslims in the world, even the tiny % you talk about are in total quite alot of (mainly) men. Men who hate the west and will do everything to destroy it. Some of them were actually educated in the west on a higher level. At the same time, the west hits back by sending soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan. Besides the question if that was a good idea, it is still a reaction on the first action of a group of Muslims. For a mainstream European, it is not possible or at least very hard to distinguish the extremist, dangerous muslim from the hard working people which are indeed the majority. Thus there we have the elderly lady who looks scared, grabs her bag when seeing a men with islamic (looking) clothing.

Nature (survival of the fittest) tells men (and also animals) to learn from the past, if there is (f.e.) always the red head making trouble blowing up busses, eveybody will start looking at every red head in a bus. So the reaction of fear in most west European countries is quite understandable. Same as that after a while, when there has not been any attack, people start to relax more.

I must admit, I am a complete no-no when it comes to religion. But what I don't understand is: if the silent majority is hurting so much because of "our" (over?-) reaction on tiny %, why is it that they don;t start a new religion, like an "Islam-light"? (and pls do not take that as an offense, it is just a matter of speaking). Instead of that it seems that people get offended and get angry. But the west may not understand well what's going on, they did not start it.

Another example: supermarket owner needs employees and chooses constantly Eriks and Peters over Ali's and Muhammads. Question is: is he a racist? or is he an entrepeneur, and choosing for the lowest risks if he knows for a fact that Erik or Peter has a 20% chance of performing a criminal act and Ali or Muhammad 50%. In that light: Would a muslim parent (who by then has a European passport and planning on staying his whole life) be smart when naming their son Erik or Peter. Or would they be considered non-muslims?
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  #106  
Old 16.10.2010, 22:45
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Absolutely. There are some extreme forms of evangelical Christianism- even in mainstream USA (creationists, etc) and the UK (Plymouth brethren, etc). It would be very simple for Muslims to use them to illustrate what Christianism is like.

BTW I am not religious at all, but I see no more reason to respect or fear my Christian friends and family to my Muslim friends and family - neither of whom are extremists of any kind. If we tried harder to respect our fellow Muslims of the 'normal' kind, it would then be much easier to fight against the more extreme versions and such aspects as female genital mutilation, etc, in some part of the Islamic world. Turkey, thanks to Attaturk (sorry ab, spelling) is a great example of a Islam country with secular principles - a very difficult balancing act.
Maybe I missed something, but the extreme christians (how much I despise any extremist form of religion as it seems they always try to mistreat women at the least) do not try to blow up parts of the Islamic world. And of course you do not fear your relatives more just because they are muslim. You know them. The fear kicks in when you don;t know. When you can't tell if a man in a dress with a backpack is just going to work or is planning to blow up the train. I think that concept of fear works the same as being afraid to fly in an airplane. Even though you know the chances to survive the trip are much higher in an airplane than in a car, the fact that you drive the car, meaning you feel in control you feel safer.

And Turkey, how much I love that country and the nice people living inside it, is only a country with secular principles cause the army prevents the government to include Islamic rules into the country. Every time Erdogan tries to loose some secular principles, men with guns stand up to defend Ataturk's principles. How much I like those principles, I cannot see this as a healthy example of a democracy.
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  #107  
Old 16.10.2010, 22:49
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

An interesting post. Thanks. I do agree that the vast majority of non-extremists Muslims should become much more openly critical of the abuses of the small minority- that would really help. Many of my Catholic friends were the first to condemn the Priests abuses and cover-up by the Vatican.
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  #108  
Old 16.10.2010, 23:08
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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but what exactly does incitement to hatred mean? Half of the football chants we use every weekend could fall under the category. I don't agree with all his politics but I think he is well within his rights.
His rights ? So if I stand in Schiphol and declare that the death of this man would be good for mankind and the world, would this also be well within MY rights ?
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  #109  
Old 16.10.2010, 23:11
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I don't think Wilders is capable of a rational or reasoned debate on Islam, instead he relies on crude caricatures and preying on people's most base fears. Its probably no coincidence that his popularity is enjoying a surge in these tougher economic times when people feel the need for a scapegoat. All of this reeks of the same sort of demonisation we saw in the 30's and 40's, and if we're not prepared to learn from history we're damned to repeat it.
A) Wilder IS like Adolf Hitler
B) the speeches of Wilder ARE like "Mein Kampf"
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Old 16.10.2010, 23:20
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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An interesting post. Thanks. I do agree that the vast majority of non-extremists Muslims should become much more openly critical of the abuses of the small minority- that would really help. Many of my Catholic friends were the first to condemn the Priests abuses and cover-up by the Vatican.

Very sorry, but I have NEVER heard Catholics "speaking out" against those cases of abuses. But I have heard Muslims around the globe speaking out and demonstrating against fundamentalists, between Casablanca and Muscat. That some of your friends condemned such priests may be, but the same applies to milllions and millions of Muslims. There have been anti-fundamentalist demonstrations in Cairo, but no anti-rubbish-catholic demonstrations in Rome. While the general belief is that Italy celebrates more of democracy than Egypt . The mainstream Muslims are quite openly very critical of those extremists.

Over in Europe, Protestants left the church over those abuses, but the Catholics did not in any way, they rather accept to get ridiculed by their clerics
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  #111  
Old 16.10.2010, 23:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Maybe I missed something, but the extreme christians (how much I despise any extremist form of religion as it seems they always try to mistreat women at the least) do not try to blow up parts of the Islamic world.
In short: Yes, you missed something.

If you feel like it, read or watch about "Blackwater" and their crusade of Christian supremacy:



Even worse: There was a evangelical Christian president in the USA for nearly a decade and he started two wars on muslim countries for very questionable reasons. Some think he was simply stupid, others think he had an agenda which his friends benefitted from financially and others think he believes to have the duty to "fix some things" for religious reasons... He publicly called the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan a "crusade", so did Powell and Rumsfeld even had bible quotes on his intel report covers... I am not so naive that I think they were simply extremists who started a war - but I am not so naive to think that they believed the bullshit they presented the UN security council either...
Bottom line: I personally believe that in the past years far more muslims have died from aggression that was at least partially motivated through misguided extreme Christianity than the other way around.

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A) Wilder IS like Adolf Hitler
B) the speeches of Wilder ARE like "Mein Kampf"
Absolutely not. Have you ever read "Mein Kampf". We used a part at high school in our history lessons - the book is terribly written, absolutely unreadable. Listening to Hitler? One of the worst speakers ever - his lack of education and training cannot be compensated through literally screaming with a high pitched voice.

Wilders is smart, educated and a very good speaker - a completely different league. In terms of the case: It would have at any time been easy to proof that Hitler was spreading hate - Wilders is far too smart for that. He is smart enough to not cross the lines too far, but just enough that the courts ordered him to go on trial - just little enough that the state attorney is afraid of losing the case...
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  #112  
Old 17.10.2010, 01:05
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Maybe I missed something, but the extreme christians (how much I despise any extremist form of religion as it seems they always try to mistreat women at the least) do not try to blow up parts of the Islamic world. And of course you do not fear your relatives more just because they are muslim. You know them. The fear kicks in when you don;t know. When you can't tell if a man in a dress with a backpack is just going to work or is planning to blow up the train. I think that concept of fear works the same as being afraid to fly in an airplane. Even though you know the chances to survive the trip are much higher in an airplane than in a car, the fact that you drive the car, meaning you feel in control you feel safer.

And Turkey, how much I love that country and the nice people living inside it, is only a country with secular principles cause the army prevents the government to include Islamic rules into the country. Every time Erdogan tries to loose some secular principles, men with guns stand up to defend Ataturk's principles. How much I like those principles, I cannot see this as a healthy example of a democracy.
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An interesting post. Thanks. I do agree that the vast majority of non-extremists Muslims should become much more openly critical of the abuses of the small minority- that would really help. Many of my Catholic friends were the first to condemn the Priests abuses and cover-up by the Vatican.
All over the world, you have voices against fanatism, extremism, radicalism. You just don't listen to them. The news don't necessary make a big fuzz about it because it doesn't sell as much as terror.

Why muslims who believe in the good of the religion should start a new one? Muslims believe that Mohammad was the last prophet and the book is the last words of God to human. The book is the same for the guy who doesn't believe to the one who goes to the Mosque once or twice a year, to the one who pray 5 times a day to the one who believe that everything non in the book is haram.

It is the way you believe, the way you read the book that makes the difference. The sad part of the Book is that since it was written in old arabic it is easy to have many different interpretations of the Sourates.

Like Christianism, Islam has differents branches. Sunnites and Shiites. In those two, you can also find differents organisations. Where are the terrorists in that? I don't know but I certainly know that it is not Islam but a radical group of people.
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  #113  
Old 17.10.2010, 02:57
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

just wanted to add
justice will be done in my opinion when the president of Iran instead of being welcome in switzerland and honored will face trial for inciting for hate and racism,

no, this is not at all like the 30s and no one is scapegoating

fact is that unfortunately many extreme moslems are emigrating to democracies and using them as platforms for inciting for racism and hate

Fact is there is not one moslem democracy and that the ones who are inciting for hate and actually act in violence just happen to be extreme moslems

does that mean ALL moslems ? NO

But it really makes me angry that switzerland welcomes such a person as the persident of Iran and makes deals with countries that supply terror openly
It makes me angry to see Amnesty International put up banners to free palestine
free from what? from a democratic Jews so that the terrorist groups who are in power in gaza can murder as they promise the jewish population

Aboslutly the wrong person to be facing trial

yes, NOT ALL MOSLEMS ARE TERRORISTS BUT THERE ARE TOO MANY
MOSLEM LEADERS CALLING FOR HATE AGAINST THE WEST
AND TOO FEW MOSLEMS PROTESTING

so i would not even consider this inciting to hate because the moslem extremists are the ones murdering moderates and anyone o does not agree with their ideas
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  #114  
Old 17.10.2010, 03:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

PS
just wanted to add i really would never support such a leader as that racist Dutch
he is not going about the right way which is to talk to the moderate moslems and encourage the people to talk and learn about eachother
he is an idiot in my opinion but to face trial for inciting for hate?
there ia long line of people that need to be facing trial before him

The Dutch should really control the immgration and kick out whoever speaks against anyone because of religion or race including this guy
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Old 17.10.2010, 09:47
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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It makes me angry to see Amnesty International put up banners to free palestine
free from what? from a democratic Jews so that the terrorist groups who are in power in gaza can murder as they promise the jewish population
How would you react if I come to your house and take you and your family out in the middle of the night and send you in the street, take your house and give it to someone from MY side?

Now imagine that is the case for thousands of family.

Free from what? From people who came and stole their lands and home in the name of religion.

Tortures, murders, threats to get the population to shut up.

Now those people who lost everything turn to the religion and guess what, those who took their life, possessions gave them a reason to hate them and want to fight them. Religion is the only thing left and being in their situation, I'll grab my faith furiously.

Extreme situations bring extreme reactions. I don't defend their extremism and terrorism, Yaser Arafat did this mistake and tried to fixed it back then. I don't believe violence is the answer. But let face it, if this country wasn't taken away from a population, that would never become what it is today.

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  #116  
Old 17.10.2010, 12:50
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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How would you react if I come to your house and take you and your family out in the middle of the night and send you in the street, take your house and give it to someone from MY side?

Now imagine that is the case for thousands of family.

Free from what? From people who came and stole their lands and home in the name of religion.

Tortures, murders, threats to get the population to shut up.

Now those people who lost everything turn to the religion and guess what, those who took their life, possessions gave them a reason to hate them and want to fight them. Religion is the only thing left and being in their situation, I'll grab my faith furiously.

Extreme situations bring extreme reactions. I don't defend their extremism and terrorism, Yaser Arafat did this mistake and tried to fixed it back then. I don't believe violence is the answer. But let face it, if this country wasn't taken away from a population, that would never become what it is today.
Once again a complete oversimplification of the issue and completely offtopic.

I expected better from you Nil, but we've already discussed this issue in great length in other threads.
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Old 17.10.2010, 12:57
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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How would you react if I come to your house and take you and your family out in the middle of the night and send you in the street, take your house and give it to someone from MY side?

Now imagine that is the case for thousands of family.

Free from what? From people who came and stole their lands and home in the name of religion.

Tortures, murders, threats to get the population to shut up.
People like Geert Wilders might argue that they are trying to prevent this from happening to their people in the near future.
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  #118  
Old 17.10.2010, 13:01
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Once again a complete oversimplification of the issue and completely offtopic.

I expected better from you Nil, but we've already discussed this issue in great length in other threads.
Probably. But It is a very big and difficult topic, especially when it contains a lot of emotion from my friends who lost everything there back then.

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People like Geert Wilders might argue that they are trying to prevent this from happening to their people in the near future.
That will be a silly argument, don't you think?
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Old 17.10.2010, 13:11
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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That will be a silly argument, don't you think?
Entire districts of Utrecht, Birmingham, Paris and Marseilles have become islamised over the last thirty years. Indigenous people have felt threatened, have been intimidated into selling their houses, have become foreign in their own countries. Demographic projections show that Muslims will outnumber indigenous Europeans in the next 50, 100, 150 years. Muslims in many European countries have already expressed their desire to implement sharia law when they find themselves in a democratic majority.

Many people are genuinely upset by the great changes they have seen in their homelands in the last few years, and are deeply afraid of what the future might hold. They fear dispossession, oppression and expulsion. Politicians like Geert Wilders speak on behalf of these people.

Whether we agree with them or not, it doesn't take much to imagine that the arguments you present in defence of the Arabs of Palestine might equally be used by those who fear the apparent islamicisation of Europe.
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Old 17.10.2010, 13:39
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Dont want to get involved in political debate and on religon (very un-Swiss behaviour), but as much as the guy is nutcase but he also represents very valid points. The muslim dominance expands very rapidly in EU and all over the world. The EU religon wise used to be divided into Christianity (Protestant/Roman Catholic and similar factions) and minority of Muslims add some percentage of atheists/non-believers. The trends observed within last 100 years or post war era show dramatic increase of migration, proclamation to muslim faith, building of minarets and famous burka problems. Now common folks are confused with whats going on in their homelands and sudden impact of middle-eastern culture which slowly starts eradicating and affecting their own native culture. They object it but they are being afraid to talk openly about it. Add that Muslim dominance is not subtle call anymore but it rather becomes quite aggresive expansion in certain parts of the EU. Somebody outspoken like GW represents intimidated voices of many folks and takes the definite stance against described above. As much as we wouldnt wanna repeat mistakes learnt from WWII but will quiet diplomacy and imploring resolve this problem? I only hope that his stance is not going to entice more hatred than it's already there but it would rather address the problem harshly and get others look into this picture more seriously. As a Christian my feelings are very mixed.
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🎾🎾Our charity organization to help unprivileged kids to realize their dreams:
FMTF Supports Tennis For Children in Southern Africa

Last edited by jacek; 17.10.2010 at 14:10.
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