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  #121  
Old 17.10.2010, 14:30
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

When I was young and used to travel through Amsterdam - I liked Red Light District just to walk around there It was there because prostitution was legalized. It is better to have them in one place and under control than strolling all over Uster like plague. Having said that I wouldn't wish for more RLD all over the country...

I used to enjoy every now and again visitng coffee shops and since smoking cannabis was illegal to do it anywhere you please, I would rather have designated places for that purpose. They were there becaused theye were legalized. Having said that I wouldn't wish for more cofee shops all over my country...

There were mosques an minarets in certain parts of town with minority and everyone lived in relative peace and harmony. They were there because the immigrants and their families obtained their permits and wanted to start new life in a new country not missing their culture.
That doesn't mean that you can expand as you please and dominate other cultures bring more people and so on and so forth...

It is the same with everything else you give a finger then sooner or later there is a risk of the whole arm being chopped off.

Ok. I hope this whole thing with Herr GW will be sorted out soon - there kept on topic.
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Last edited by jacek; 17.10.2010 at 15:00.
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  #122  
Old 17.10.2010, 14:40
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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His rights ? So if I stand in Schiphol and declare that the death of this man would be good for mankind and the world, would this also be well within MY rights ?
First, declaring a killing is much worse then declaring a certain group of people is not welcome anymore. We have seen it before when Pim Fortuin (he was a bit like GW, but more eloquent and less idiot) was killed (by the way not by a muslim but by a left wing animal rights activist).

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A) Wilder IS like Adolf Hitler
B) the speeches of Wilder ARE like "Mein Kampf"
Declaring that is within your rights. I only hope you say that because it is in your right to say it, not because you believe in it. AH systematically killed 6 million Jews, which is very different from saying they are not welcome anymore (and again, I am just voicing - simplified - what GW sais, not what I think).

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Very sorry, but I have NEVER heard Catholics "speaking out" against those cases of abuses. But I have heard Muslims around the globe speaking out and demonstrating against fundamentalists, between Casablanca and Muscat. That some of your friends condemned such priests may be, but the same applies to milllions and millions of Muslims. There have been anti-fundamentalist demonstrations in Cairo, but no anti-rubbish-catholic demonstrations in Rome. While the general belief is that Italy celebrates more of democracy than Egypt . The mainstream Muslims are quite openly very critical of those extremists.

Over in Europe, Protestants left the church over those abuses, but the Catholics did not in any way, they rather accept to get ridiculed by their clerics
Well, first of all, although the abuse is awful of course and I do not want to compare the 2 things in terms of what is worse, the abuse is different from muslim terrorism threats which continue to exist. And I do agree that the vatican, and all catholic spokespersons for that matter, may outspeak themselves stronger against it instead of trying to cover it. The difference is that since 9/11, public transportations, high buildings are possible targets (still are), and continue to scare people. Maybe you are right, and I missed those demonstrations cause they are not aired, but what I did see was celebrating muslims in NL after 9/11, and what I also saw was that the 9/11 perps were muslims, partly grown up or educated in the west, even well educated, and still they found in the Islam the reason to do that. Frankly that scares the sh*t out of me and many other Europeans, cause even though millions of Muslims might strongly oppose these extremists, you just don;t know if your, seems to be normal, nabour suddenly start to blow up stuff. I wished it would be only the stupid, under-educated muslims that become extreme, but it isn't.

That is why I was thinking of a split. I definitely do not want to offend someone by thinking it, but if I were muslim, and I would see these threats continue to arise, and see big populations get so scared that it would influence the way I could live, I would feel the need to speak out and change.

What I usually hear is muslims saying they do not agree, but mainly saying, well, the koran is friendly so these are not muslim acts.

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In short: Yes, you missed something.

If you feel like it, read or watch about "Blackwater" and their crusade of Christian supremacy:



Even worse: There was a evangelical Christian president in the USA for nearly a decade and he started two wars on muslim countries for very questionable reasons. Some think he was simply stupid, others think he had an agenda which his friends benefitted from financially and others think he believes to have the duty to "fix some things" for religious reasons... He publicly called the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan a "crusade", so did Powell and Rumsfeld even had bible quotes on his intel report covers... I am not so naive that I think they were simply extremists who started a war - but I am not so naive to think that they believed the bullshit they presented the UN security council either...
Bottom line: I personally believe that in the past years far more muslims have died from aggression that was at least partially motivated through misguided extreme Christianity than the other way around.
OK you got a point, thanks. Still, call me naive but I see these war acts mainly as a reaction on 9/11. It became very clear that Osama bin Laden, in the name of Islam, declared total war to the west. And besides that, I speak mainly about Europe not America, while I do agree that there are some really scary Christian groups overthere. What is going on with GW, is that people are scared because of the terrorist acts, in combination with the fact that several parts of several cities have been taken over by muslim immigrants who do not really make an effort to integrate (in this case it is only a minority).

In the news, people see wars all over the world, and almost everyone of them is somehow connected with muslims, people see news about bombs on Iraqi markets, where soenits blow up shiits (or the other way around, I cannot really follow that one), people see news about muslim immigrants who appear to be criminal. People see news about Ali el B. and muhammad bin A. being arrested for robbery (this is how is written in Dutch newspapers, full first name and last name as initial). Of course news papers are biased but sometimes I almost understand people start voting for guys like GW.
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  #123  
Old 17.10.2010, 16:44
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

I hate extremism, radicalism and intregrism. I don't want someone to tell me how I should act as a woman or how I should dress. I don't care which religion you are, live me free to be who I am.

I don't want people from your religion, my religion () and any other religion to come to my house and tell me what I should do or not.

I do agree on one thing, the countries lost controle on their immigrations, I believe when you come to a new country, you take the country and the culture to heart. When you are out and about, you should be able to blend with other population. When you are at home, I have nothing to tell you. You do what you want, you live the way you want under the federal law of the country.

I understand what that GB is trying to do, I can understand to a certain extend but to used extremism may serve him for some but not for all. To call every muslim the way he does doesn't represent everyone.

I don't fit in any descriptions of what is a muslim here. And yet, maybe I am not a ''real'' one for you, but I am for the other muslim that I know, which I am no different from.

What is annoying is to have this muslim's sticker. Like if I was calling all of you Christians. Or like if all the gays were called the F word....

Instead to use the muslim word to described the ones who cause trouble as a generality, we could call the minority by a name just for them. And then, maybe the people in the majority group will stop to feel that they have to defend themselve constantly. It is tiring...

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  #124  
Old 17.10.2010, 16:47
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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just wanted to add
justice will be done in my opinion when the president of Iran instead of being welcome in switzerland and honored will face trial for inciting for hate and racism.
(...)
GW and Ahmedinejad are the two faces of the same coin. Their speeches are interchangeable. Europe's fear of invading muslims is mirrored by the fear of western armies invading muslim countries (irak, afghanistan).
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  #125  
Old 17.10.2010, 17:05
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Of course news papers are biased but sometimes I almost understand people start voting for guys like GW.

But isn't it also true that a large number of GW's supporters are not well educated, don't have a lot of prospects and with the economic issues, worried about loosing their support from the state. I don't want to sound elitist, but it might be easy to engage them, and get them energized by his rhetoric. GW, following Fortuin has identified a "bad guy", a scapegoat, and GW's languge serves to incite anger against that scapegoat (Muslims). And GW is trying to hold onto the liberal support traditions of the Dutch government.

One of my friends teaches school near the Hague (and she actually lives near Wilders). In her school the biggest trouble comes not from the Muslim kids and parents, but from the parents who are basically on social support. But it might well be an isolated incident.

I find it really interesting that Wilders has a good bit of Indonesian blood in him. And not to make a fashion statement, but his hair is unique. It makes him easily identifiable in a crowd (same reason that I've heard the queen (of the Netherlands) wears a big hat). I also wonder if the blond-ish makes him look more "Dutch" and possibly focuses less on his Indonesian background.
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  #126  
Old 17.10.2010, 17:08
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Entire districts of Utrecht, Birmingham, Paris and Marseilles have become islamised over the last thirty years. Indigenous people have felt threatened, have been intimidated into selling their houses, have become foreign in their own countries. Demographic projections show that Muslims will outnumber indigenous Europeans in the next 50, 100, 150 years. Muslims in many European countries have already expressed their desire to implement sharia law when they find themselves in a democratic majority.

(...)

Whether we agree with them or not, it doesn't take much to imagine that the arguments you present in defence of the Arabs of Palestine might equally be used by those who fear the apparent islamicisation of Europe.
Good collection of phantasm used by right-extremist to secrete fear in the hearts of people. You forget to mention that all these muslims living in the districts of big european cities are often legit national citizens of those countries, but yet treated as foreigners because they look different. They are discriminated in jobs and housing. If they don't live in other districts it's not because they like to be in "muslim" areas...they are not given access to housing in other districts. They are forced into "muslim" ghettos because of job and housing discrimination. The riots in Paris were represented in the anglo.saxon media as muslim riots whereas in reality it was a social riot because of job and housing discrimination despite the french ID cards they were displaying openly in front of TV camera.
Will "muslims" outnumber indigenous europeans in 50, 100 years? What is a British, French, German, Italian, Spanish muslim in 50 years? Your projection is that the'll be Osama b Laden alike. I take the bet that european muslims in 50years from now will be completely different. As there is an african islam, asian islam, north-american islam with local specific rules, behaviors there will be a european islam with its own specificities. I take the bet it will be a more democratic one and definitely miles away from the "sharia" phantasm you're projecting. Seriously, sharia is a reality in a very tiny number of countries thus representing a minority among the billions living in the world.

I read through the posts and sense the fear. The questions are there, but the answers so far from GW or alike right-extremists is a new ethnical cleansing. Is it what we want?
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  #127  
Old 17.10.2010, 17:16
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I read through the posts and sense the fear.
What fear? I'm not afraid.

But plenty of people are afraid, are deeply unhappy with the changes to their society over the last thirty years, and people like Geert Wilders speak for them.

Shall we just tell them to shut up?
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  #128  
Old 17.10.2010, 17:35
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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What fear? I'm not afraid.

But plenty of people are afraid, are deeply unhappy with the changes to their society over the last thirty years, and people like Geert Wilders speak for them.

Shall we just tell them to shut up?
I'm talking about the fear of this "plenty of people"....not yours.
No one should "shut up", but no community should be designated as a scapegoat as well. It can lead to solutions that we do not want see happening again.
I claim that extreme-right parties (ā la PVV of GW, or Freedom Party in Austria) are symptoms of profound crisis and changes in european democratic countries. The extreme-islamism is exactly the same symptom expressed in muslim-tyrannic countries.
What I know, is that these parties recognize the trouble among the population but do not come-up with the right answers. The way GW speaks about muslims is as racist as the speeches of radical muslim imams.

If i follow the ideas of GW then muslims (moderate or extremists) should just pack their stuff and flee or worst could happen to them.
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  #129  
Old 17.10.2010, 18:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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What fear? I'm not afraid.

But plenty of people are afraid, are deeply unhappy with the changes to their society over the last thirty years, and people like Geert Wilders speak for them.

Shall we just tell them to shut up?
No but maybe we can put them in ghettos and see how they will become?

When my parents-in-law move to germany to work in the industrie and cleaning up toilets becasee no germans wanted to do it, the gouvernment gave them all visas but also put them in a specific neighbourhood where they packed all foreigners. They didn't bother to help them to learn the language and mix with the population. At work, they were treated like they weren't human citizens... At school the kids were discriminated and rejected. No ones wanted to play with the turcs and God forbid them to join a soccer team... (now look who are the best in the germans teams...)

You create a generation of frustrated parents and a generation of frustrated kids who understand and speak the language, who grow up in the country like all the other kids.

Some of them turned bad, some turned very well and this is not with the help of the gouvernment.

GB should turn around and look at his gouvernement, look at the laws and programs in place. It is there tha the work as to be done to make sure that every person in his country has the same chances.

Yes the gouvernement shouldn't be so easy on the immigrants when they move in the country. I know the problem, we have this in Canada. We welcome everybody, give them the free assurance card, help them to find a home, etc... But it goes too far. Now we have the problem called: Accommodement Raisonnable, which gives the rights to minority to have their religion, culture and language needs fullfiled in institutions and at work. It sounds good on paper but goes way to far in reality.

Who's fault is it? Not those who try to get every single cm out of it, but those who didn't do any limits out of it. Thanks to our wonderful Law and liberty chart.
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  #130  
Old 17.10.2010, 18:14
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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No but maybe we can put them in ghettos and see how they will become?
They already live there, but nobody is prepared to listen to them apart from the far right.
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  #131  
Old 17.10.2010, 18:17
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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No but maybe we can put them in ghettos and see and God forbid them to join a soccer team... (now look who are the best in the germans teams...)

Schweinsteiger is a very turkish name, from eastern Anatolya I believe
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  #132  
Old 17.10.2010, 18:25
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Wilders is the consequence of Theo van Gogh's assassination.

Before the assassination, the Dutch followed happily their own way of welcoming the immigrating world, starting with ex-collonies, continuing with Turkish and Marocan immigrants, expending to the western expat community. The system is clear : the freedom of the individual is based on the respect of other's freedom. Thus each Dutch is the warrant of other's freedom, which warrant each Dutch the same. But not as one unified Dutch community.

Dutch society's traditional ligns of divisions are old, strong and stable: protestants, catholics and humanists. Each Dutch recognized himherself in the social networks that derives from it and not with the religion as such. It's a socio-cultural circle in which the individual finds its identity, not a religious community. Applying the freedom warranty principal, everybody was minding his own business and the society was kind of stressed but free.

Immigrants were given the same frame. Caribeans, Indonesians, Africans and then Turks and Marocans were to live in a community of life and were asked to apply the principle of freedom warranty like the rest of the country. Being different was irrelevant, the social cohesion was made possible by the mutual respect, even if that leads to isolation and lack of communication between communities. It was not different from the Dutch communities among themselves. That worked and people trusted on that until the assassination.

What did Theo van Gogh's assassination change? It kills the trust. Dutch communities were in the last few decades far less hermetically separated as they used to be anyway, and the isolation of communities of immigrants increased (nahm zu). Since one person killed a man for what he was, the doubt has come into people's mind: how real is the respect needed to keep the system of freedom warranty they build their nation around.

Trust being lost, irrationality and real experiences mix up and doubt is now deeply ankered in people's mind. Is it thinkable that immigrant communities became so "stranger" to Dutch society that it is not possible anymore to live in a status quo of freedom? Is the danger real, is the willingness to detatch themselves from Dutch national cohesion so strong that the freedom of the Dutch can not be garanted anymore? Doubts, doubts, doubts.

When people have doubts, there is always a Wilders stating that the fundamental split has been fulfilled already and that it is now a question of national division dutch/immigrant. The context makes it creadible, it does not make it true.

Traditional politicians have to save the old system. They have to restaure the needed Trust. A part of the immigrant comminities want exactly that too. Will they be able to? No idea.


P.S. Personal view, I don't mind Dutch people explaining to me/us the contrary of it, I am willing to learn and gain even more insight... but I lived there and speak the linguage, so I do have a couple of convincitons. Opinions and analysis may however differ.
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  #133  
Old 17.10.2010, 20:38
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Question:
is it true that there is a "secret" second volume of Kuran which does promote violence and strictly does tell you as a Muslim you must kill all who ainīt..etc?

From where did Wilders get all those translated quotes, if not from the real Kuran (Iīve never read it so I really donīt know)?

Plus, you gotta love all the messages to MANkind which means ofocurse MAN "treat your woman like this and that.."
Is it really all from the real deal Kuran?
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  #134  
Old 17.10.2010, 20:45
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Question:
is it true that there is a "secret" second volume of Kuran which does promote violence and strictly does tell you as a Muslim you must kill all who ainīt..etc?


Probably not.

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From where did Wilders get all those translated quotes, if not from the real Kuran (Iīve never read it so I really donīt know)?
Dunno. Maybe from the Koran, maybe from the hadith (collected sayings of the Prophet). They're probably taken out of context. These things usually are.

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Plus, you gotta love all the messages to MANkind which means ofocurse MAN "treat your woman like this and that.."
Is it really all from the real deal Kuran?
When the Koran was written, it was a massive improvement on what had been going on before.

Do you want me to dig up some quotes from Leviticus for your entertainment?
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  #135  
Old 17.10.2010, 20:49
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Probably not.



Dunno. Maybe from the Koran, maybe from the hadith (collected sayings of the Prophet). They're probably taken out of context. These things usually are.



When the Koran was written, it was a massive improvement on what had been going on before.

Do you want me to dig up some quotes from Leviticus for your entertainment?
You always entertain me.

I just wanna know from where does he base his quotes, whether they are true or not.
I guess Iīm not sure he would go public with that video of his esp being in the politics and all, unless he was pretty sure of himself and knew for a fact that everything he says is accurate.
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  #136  
Old 17.10.2010, 20:53
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Some parts of the bible just ain't for the fainthearted either - esp. Genesis. Any good quotes?
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  #137  
Old 17.10.2010, 21:00
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Some parts of the bible just ain't for the fainthearted either - esp. Genesis. Any good quotes?
Bible donīt interest me at all..
I always like to learn,so I guess even the Holy Book fits into that category.
No quotes though.
Anyone?
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Old 17.10.2010, 21:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I guess Iīm not sure he would go public with that video of his esp being in the politics and all, unless he was pretty sure of himself and knew for a fact that everything he says is accurate.
I wouldn't bank on that. It's not unknown for people to cherry pick quotes out of context in order to support whatever they're saying.

Of course, it doesn't help that the Koran - like other holy books - is full of violence and exhortations to sort out unbelievers. That doesn't mean, of course, that Muslims are going to go out and behead every kafir they see any more than Christians are going to go out and execute their local pharmacist for witchcraft.

But it does make it a bit awkward when someone comes along and starts quoting the nasty bits of your holy book and throwing them back at you...
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Old 17.10.2010, 21:05
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Bible donīt interest me at all..
If you're interested in Islam, you ought to at least understand something of Christianity, since that's where it came from...

The Bible's always a good place to start with that.
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  #140  
Old 17.10.2010, 21:06
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I wouldn't bank on that. It's not unknown for people to cherry pick quotes out of context in order to support whatever they're saying.

Of course, it doesn't help that the Koran - like other holy books - is full of violence and exhortations to sort out unbelievers. That doesn't mean, of course, that Muslims are going to go out and behead every kafir they see any more than Christians are going to go out and execute their local pharmacist for witchcraft.

But it does make it a bit awkward when someone comes along and starts quoting the nasty bits of your holy book and throwing them back at you...
So, youīre saying that those nasty bits are actually from the Koran?
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