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  #141  
Old 17.10.2010, 21:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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So, youre saying that those nasty bits are actually from the Koran?
No, because I haven't a clue what he has said, nor do I have the energy to go and fetch my copy of the Koran to check.

Why don't you check, if it's that important to you?

I'm just saying what he might have done, being a politician and a gobshite.
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  #142  
Old 17.10.2010, 21:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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If you're interested in Islam, you ought to at least understand something of Christianity, since that's where it came from...

The Bible's always a good place to start with that.
Im interested in all religions of the world, in means that I want to learn.
What Im not interested in, however, is reading something that doesnt do anything else than telling you how to and how not to be, what is a sin..I prefer to believe that every normal human being is capable of learning that on his/her own and that is how it should be.
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  #143  
Old 17.10.2010, 21:12
Lana K.
 
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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No, because I haven't a clue what he has said, nor do I have the energy to go and fetch my copy of the Koran to check.

Why don't you check, if it's that important to you?

I'm just saying what he might have done, being a politician and a gobshite.
Why do you think this is SO important to me?
ʹm just curious, thats all.

Reading the whole Kuran (or the Bible) is not on my have to do list.
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  #144  
Old 17.10.2010, 21:12
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Im interested in all religions of the world, in means that I want to learn.
What Im not interested in, however, is reading something that doesnt do anything else than telling you how to and how not to be, what is a sin..I prefer to believe that every normal human being is capable of learning that on his/her own and that is how it should be.
Neither the Bible nor the Koran do that. They're both full of stories and illustrations of advisable and inadvisable behaviour (which is often where the knockers dig up their quotes), as well as straightforward rules (although very little of either consists of just that).

You could always go and have a look for yourself. You could read the Koran in a day or two, although the Bible might take a little longer.
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  #145  
Old 17.10.2010, 21:13
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Why do you think this is SO important to me?
ʹm just curious, thats all.

Reading the whole Kuran (or the Bible) is not on my have to do list.
Looks like you'll just have to keep on being curious, then, won't you?
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  #146  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:21
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Good collection of phantasm used by right-extremist to secrete fear in the hearts of people. You forget to mention that all these muslims living in the districts of big european cities are often legit national citizens of those countries, but yet treated as foreigners because they look different. They are discriminated in jobs and housing. If they don't live in other districts it's not because they like to be in "muslim" areas...they are not given access to housing in other districts. They are forced into "muslim" ghettos because of job and housing discrimination. The riots in Paris were represented in the anglo.saxon media as muslim riots whereas in reality it was a social riot because of job and housing discrimination despite the french ID cards they were displaying openly in front of TV camera.
Will "muslims" outnumber indigenous europeans in 50, 100 years? What is a British, French, German, Italian, Spanish muslim in 50 years? Your projection is that the'll be Osama b Laden alike. I take the bet that european muslims in 50years from now will be completely different. As there is an african islam, asian islam, north-american islam with local specific rules, behaviors there will be a european islam with its own specificities. I take the bet it will be a more democratic one and definitely miles away from the "sharia" phantasm you're projecting. Seriously, sharia is a reality in a very tiny number of countries thus representing a minority among the billions living in the world.

I read through the posts and sense the fear. The questions are there, but the answers so far from GW or alike right-extremists is a new ethnical cleansing. Is it what we want?



Are you British? If so when did you leave and when was the last time you went back?

I grew up in the UK and left about 18 years ago - but return a few times a year. I'm from a place in the UK that never had "racial ghettos" so to speak. Middlesbrough. We always had quite a few Pakistani's + Indians they were well integrated into the community while maintaining their own religion and culture.

What has happened to the social landscape in the UK over the last 5 years has been completely crazy. This is not about being racist or anti-islam. But the sheer volume of immigrants - the magnitude and speed of the shift in society with the knock on effects that entails has for many areas just been un-manageable.

There are still no real "raciial ghettos" in Middlesbrough - but what has happened is that in many areas including where I grew up, in local primary schools, new immigrants mainly from the muslim countries are making up between 40 - 60% population in the schools. Many more women walk the streets wearing the bhurka - as a women I find the bhurka deeply offensive, it's a symbol of a way of life which does not belong in the UK.

Outside my parents house is a fairly main road with double yellow lines. At 3.30 everyday, the whole road is filled with land rovers and cars driven by muslim parents who disregard completely the double yellow lines and park up along the pavements. The council instead of sending a traffic cop down to move these cars on - simply paid for the pavements to be re-enforced so they wouldn't be damaged by the illegally parked cars. Complete madness. Happening in many other towns across the UK. And pissing people off to be blunt.

In some of the bigger cities in the UK there are muslim only schools with mandatory wearing of the buhrka for girls. While in the UK I heard it reported that it was important for muslims who don't share the values of the West to have a place where their children can attend school. But if these particular muslims don't share the values of the West then why on earth come here? Why not either return to their country, or go and settle in a more traditional muslim country?

I am not against muslims (one of my oldest and very best friends in the world is Iranian) or any other religion or race. But shouldn't there be some respect for the values of the majority of people in the country/society in which they live? When I travelled through West Sumatra (an islamic country - at first I wore shorts, I was soon very strongly chastised by a screaming man that I should dress properly, after that I wore long skirts, covered my arms and covered my hair - because I was in a country where the majority of people practised that)

Can you imagine if en masse thousands of people from the UK, France and Germany descended on Saudi Arabia, started wearing vest tops and drinking alcohol in the streets and built a few churches too. (I'm not against people building mosques and places of worship) am just painting the picture if the reverse situation occurred.

Would the officials in Saudi let the people from the West get on with it, in the name of religious freedom and because they are there now and in 50 years time, after they've had large families - the religious and cultural demography of Saudi will be different anyway? Would they?

I believe that in the West we're in a difficult position. We have politicians like Wim and the guy from the BNP and Le Pen - who have hidden agendas - who are extreme, who could be dangerous.

Hitler is still fresh in our collective conscience and we are quite rightly, very afraid of another such nutter whipping up popular support. And yet - there is a problem, a problem felt by a large majority of people, a problem of policy, a societal problem.

People are not racist and certainly in the UK are terrified of being called a racist, but people are not happy, as DB pointed out in his post, there is a general feeling that things have gone too far. And regular politicians must address this. And we must try and stay balanced here.

I would hate the think of either Switzerland or the UK as an ethnically homogeneous land - cultural diversity gives strength and depth to a society.

Last year I spent 9 weeks working with immigrants in Newcastle (from Iraq, Palestine, Iran, Afghanistan) they were some of the most beautiful people I've met, I was moved to tears by their stories on a regular basis - I wa teaching them English and really really hope they can settle in the UK. (It was an honour to teach them)

But I would FULLY support an SVP ruling that immigrants who come to Switzerland and then rape or kill should face immediate deportation. I think the UK should do the same.

It's not about being racist - it's about sensible, balanced policies. At the moment mainstream politicians and many regular people don't really express themselves because the moment they say anything they're painted with the racist brush. It's not that, it really isn't and those who paint anyone who has anything to say about immigration policy as racist are both doing their democratic systems an injustice and inadvertently empowering far right politicians who do address the issues (albeit in an unbalanced and unfair way)

Wim represents the concerns of millions of people - they are very real concerns and it's the job of main stream politicians to address them.
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  #147  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:25
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

The UDC/SVP poster displayed here says 'Rapist - soon to become Swiss'
but Swiss nationality will not be given to somebody who does not have a clean Police record (and up to date with taxes).
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  #148  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:26
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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If you're interested in Islam, you ought to at least understand something of Judaism, since that's where it came from...

The Bible's always a good place to start with that.

Fixed that for you...
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  #149  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:27
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Fixed that for you...
Indirectly from Judaism, but directly from Christianity - more precisely, the iconoclastic movement with the Greek Orthodox church.
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  #150  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:28
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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The UDC/SVP poster displayed here says 'Rapist - soon to become Swiss'
but Swiss nationality will not be given to somebody who does not have a clean Police record (and up to date with taxes).
I don't support the SVP or their advertising tactics - I mean that is an utterly ridiculous statement. Swiss nationality is just not the issue.

The issue is - an immigrant is given asylum here, taken in and then goes and rapes a girl or boy on the street. In this situation for me the case is clear - the immigrant is put on the next plane and sent back.
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  #151  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:34
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Indirectly from Judaism, but directly from Christianity - more precisely, the iconoclastic movement with the Greek Orthodox church.

That's like saying a Doberman is more like a Rottweiler than a dog..
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  #152  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:36
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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When my parents-in-law move to germany to work in the industrie and cleaning up toilets becasee no germans wanted to do it, the gouvernment gave them all visas but also put them in a specific neighbourhood where they packed all foreigners. They didn't bother to help them to learn the language and mix with the population. At work, they were treated like they weren't human citizens... At school the kids were discriminated and rejected. No ones wanted to play with the turcs and God forbid them to join a soccer team... (now look who are the best in the germans teams...)

You create a generation of frustrated parents and a generation of frustrated kids who understand and speak the language, who grow up in the country like all the other kids.

Some of them turned bad, some turned very well and this is not with the help of the gouvernment.

GB should turn around and look at his gouvernement, look at the laws and programs in place. It is there tha the work as to be done to make sure that every person in his country has the same chances.

.
Multiculturalism in Germany has failed - and that's the view of the big boss...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...l-society.html
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  #153  
Old 17.10.2010, 22:55
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I don't support the SVP or their advertising tactics - I mean that is an utterly ridiculous statement. Swiss nationality is just not the issue.

The issue is - an immigrant is given asylum here, taken in and then goes and rapes a girl or boy on the street. In this situation for me the case is clear - the immigrant is put on the next plane and sent back.
The issue is not only with asylum seekers, but what SVP targets are for instance young albanians, kosovars, former-yugoslavians, turks who were born here or haven been living here since childhood and do not have swiss citizenship. They only know switzerland and never lived in the country of their parents, they are also foreigners in those countries. Can you ban and send them back their?
I do not have a clear opinion on such cases.
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  #154  
Old 17.10.2010, 23:07
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

Yes, it is not always as easy as at first sight. What do you do too if a criminal has a wife and children? International Law also prevents countries from sending back those from countries where they are likely to be persecuted at high risk if returned, like Afghanistan, etc.

I completely agree with your reaction re returning criminals - as said, at the end of the day, they make the choice and have to take consequences- but it can be very complicated. From the UK perspective, imagine a Ugandan Asian kicked out by Idi Amin after a couple of generations in Africa, and then sent back to 'India' after committing a crime?

But I just do not understand how, in the 21st Century, the SVP/UDC can still post huge posters showing white sheep kicking out black sheep- and a 'typical' Balkan 'type' with 'rapist soon to be Swiss'. It is shameful - as a Swiss it makes me ashamed- and it is a LIE - and scaremongering in a totally unacceptable way. I asked a local politician how they get away with it, and his reply was ' if we try and stop them, it plays right into their hands, as they can then state they are gagged, not allowed to express the fears of the people, etc. This happened in the C/Kantons that banned the Minarets looking like bombs, with a Burka wearing terrifying woman.
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  #155  
Old 17.10.2010, 23:16
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

I don't agree with everything in StephanieWD's post - for example, the religion or ethnicity of people parking on pavements is irrelevant, and I see no problem at all with women walking round the streets of British towns in burqas - but the concerns that she raises are genuine ones held by an awful lot of people. Unfortunately, most of the people who are concerned about the changes to their cities are unimportant people, in a political sense, and it is easier for mainstream parties just to tell them to shut up than it is to actually listen to what they have to say, to correct their misunderstandings, to address their worries about criminal behaviour or intimidation and to actually cough up the cash for the new infrastructure necessary to cater for the needs of large numbers of new arrivals (language support in schools, drop-in clinics and so on).

I have seen for myself the changes that have occured in the inner suburbs of Birmingham over the last thirty years or so. For illustrative purposes, I'll describe a fictional one: Mashwood Heath.

Mashwood Heath was never a nice area, really, just a typical lower middle class inner suburb of run down semis with a dodgy park full of dog turds and broken bottles, but it has changed very rapidly in a way that, for the indigenous inhabitants, must be terrifying.

First of all, some of the more prosperous Mirpuris from further towards town start buying houses in the district. They work long hours and, while the insides of their houses are immaculate, the gardens tend to be a bit neglected. Mr and Mrs Meakin have noticed that the family next door haven't cut their grass for a while, and there are several bags of gravel lying next to the footpath. They are trying to sell their house and are worried what prospective buyers will think, but don't really want to make a fuss.

Soon afterwards, the butcher's shop changes hands and becomes a halal butcher. If Mrs Wetherall is lucky, she'll be served by the son of the family, but sometimes old Mr Iqbal is the only person serving, and his English isn't very good, so she starts going to Kwiksave instead.

Then a mosque and madrassah open up in what used to be Mr Jones' furniture store. There are lots of young men hanging round at all hours of the day and night, and Mrs Alcott feels nervous walking past. They've never said anything to her, but she still doesn't like it much. She stops going to the bingo and watches the telly instead.

Mr and Mrs Meakin get a telephone call from their estate agent. They are delighted to hear that a couple are coming to look at their house. When they arrive, the Meakins see that the wife is wearing a scarf that covers her face. They feel a bit unnerved by this, but it would be rude not to invite them in. The couple whisper to each other in Urdu the whole time in the house, the husband only occasionally asking the Meakins a question in English. They leave, and the Meakins go and have a cup of tea. Half an hour later, they receive a phone call from the estate agent - the couple are making an offer several thousand pounds less than the asking price. The Meakins refuse the offer and think nothing of it. Until the phone calls and visits begin... after six months of persistent harassment, they move out, after having accepted 50 000 less than they'd hoped for.

Mrs Alcott meets Mrs Wetherall in Kwiksave one afternoon. They talk about all the changes that have happened in Mashwood Heath over the last few years. Mrs Wetherall doesn't like being bumped into by these strange women who "dress like ghosts" and never apologise. Mrs Alcott complains that she can never get an appointment at the doctor's any more, as its full of "them Pakistanis coughing and spitting and that". Mrs Wetherall says that her grandson is being beaten up at school - there are only two other English kids in his year - and doesn't understand the dinner ladies when they speak to him.

Eventually Mrs Alcott and Mrs Wetherall die, their houses are bought by Mirpuri families, and within ten years, Mashwood Heath looks like somewhere in the foothills of the Himalayas, with Urdu lettering all over the place, strange vegetables outside the supermarkets, and women in burqas pushing buggies down the street.

Now, nothing I've described is illegal. Very little of it - with the exception of the intimidation Mr and Mrs Meakin were subjected to (which is a mixture of experiences my own family and friends have had) and the bullying of Mrs Wetherall's grandson - is actually bad behaviour. Everyone has a right to buy a house and let the grass get overgrown if they haven't the time to maintain it. Everyone has a right to buy a business and change it to suit his clients. Everyone has a right to wear the clothes she chooses. Everyone has a right to walk down the street speaking whichever language he wants. Everyone has a right to attend a place of worship or a community centre of her choice. Everyone has a right to go to the doctor, or send his children to school.

But imagine if you were Mrs Alcott, or Mrs Wetherall, or the Meakins. How would you feel about all the changes to your community that you were powerless to prevent? Would you write to your MP? Do you think he, in his nice house in Solihull, would really care what you had to say? Do you think he'd just dismiss you as "some racist woman" and throw your letter in the bin? Would you, after being ignored for so long, find yourself tempted to cross the box next to the name of "that nice young man from the BNP"?

Change happens. Change, in many cases, is necessary. But someone has to listen to the cries of those whose lives are directly affected by these changes.

Unfortunately, up until now, the only people who have been prepared to listen have been the likes of Geert Wilders.

And do you think they're doing that for the benefit of Mrs Alcott, Mrs Wetherall and Mr and Mrs Meakin?

I don't think so...
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  #156  
Old 17.10.2010, 23:16
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Are you British? If so when did you leave and when was the last time you went back?
No, I'm not. Nobody is perfect
But is my english so good to be mistaken for a brit?

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In some of the bigger cities in the UK there are muslim only schools with mandatory wearing of the buhrka for girls. While in the UK I heard it reported that it was important for muslims who don't share the values of the West to have a place where their children can attend school. But if these particular muslims don't share the values of the West then why on earth come here? Why not either return to their country, or go and settle in a more traditional muslim country?
Why on earth did western countries accept these people to settle?
The muslims that are settling here are not among the educated people even in their home countries. They are not part of some social elite. So what we get here is the scum.

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Can you imagine if en masse thousands of people from the UK, France and Germany descended on Saudi Arabia, started wearing vest tops and drinking alcohol in the streets and built a few churches too. (I'm not against people building mosques and places of worship) am just painting the picture if the reverse situation occurred.

Would the officials in Saudi let the people from the West get on with it, in the name of religious freedom and because they are there now and in 50 years time, after they've had large families - the religious and cultural demography of Saudi will be different anyway? Would they?
It's an argument that I don't accept because you put yourself at the level of a undemocratic country. I don't think freedom principles should be an object of a trade: because you don't do, I won't also. If we don't it's because of our human right principle or democracy not because they wouldn't allow us to build churches etc...

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It's not about being racist - it's about sensible, balanced policies. At the moment mainstream politicians and many regular people don't really express themselves because the moment they say anything they're painted with the racist brush. It's not that, it really isn't and those who paint anyone who has anything to say about immigration policy as racist are both doing their democratic systems an injustice and inadvertently empowering far right politicians who do address the issues (albeit in an unbalanced and unfair way)

Wim represents the concerns of millions of people - they are very real concerns and it's the job of main stream politicians to address them.
Yes you're making a good point here. I think the main failure of main stream politicians was accepting immigrants who do not accept western values (but they also needed cheap work force at that time). But you can't just after years kick them back home. The main danger I see is that all muslims are put in one single pot and treated as a whole group of not fit for integration.
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Old 17.10.2010, 23:30
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Why on earth did western countries accept these people to settle?
The muslims that are settling here are not among the educated people even in their home countries. They are not part of some social elite. So what we get here is the scum.
Not even GW says that...
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  #158  
Old 17.10.2010, 23:49
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I hate extremism, radicalism and intregrism. I don't want someone to tell me how I should act as a woman or how I should dress. I don't care which regilion you are, live me free to be who I am.

.......

What is annoying is to have this muslim's sticker. Like if I was calling all of you Christians. Or like if all the gays were called the F word....

Instead to use the muslim word to described the ones who cause trouble as a generality, we could call the minority by a name just for them. And then, maybe the people in the majority group will stop to feel that they have to defend themselve constantly. It is tiring...
I hear you, I do agree that is must be very tiring to defend yourself for acts of crazy people. I also don;t have the answer. It is good to have an actual muslim in this discussion anyway. Although you are apparently not part of the problem, as you have grown up to be a confident, international woman. (also thanks to your parents??).

What I am just trying to say is that there are serious issues with muslims, followed with the rising of "stars" like GW. That is bad, although I think he is in his right to say the things he sais (to stay OT). Just because I can imagine you do not want that sticker, I'd think that you'd like to scream "I'm not like that!" or something like it. But maybe it's the extremists who should be labeled differently. Or maybe I am just crazy to want to label everything??

What I understand from GW is that he has nothing against people like you. It is the burka wearing, not integrating people he has a thing against. And that I do agree (not the way how he phrases it and what is non-answers are, but the fact we need to do something about it). Probably he would not even consider you a muslim?

Someone talked about Holland as a country without problems before the killing of Theo van Gogh. That is not true, cause Theo was killed for his expressions who were not very nice for the local muslim community. Also Pim Fortuin was already a rising star by then. It is different: Holland has taken on foreigners forever, and those foreigners could live relatively free, we let them free, and that is why Holland was seen as the progressive country as it was. Frankly this has been ruined by the sheer amount of muslim immigrants who were also let free, but, in contraire of the immigrating Vietnamese, Indians etc etc before them the majority of them did not integrate at all.

In the beginning nobody cared, cause they did the cleaning work etc etc, until suddenly it appeared that a huge group went on sick leave, their sons were let free and not raised (meaning let free outside until late, school results not monitored). The whole family was being sent over, coming from very remote places from Turkey and Morocco, not being educated. Women not allowed to leave the house, learn the language etc etc etc.

Maybe the government has failed, well, they have. They should never have allowed this to happen. Cause all over the world, the poor, uneducated people make the most trouble, and yet they allowed to let a group grow to 1 million people, of which the majority is poor, uneducated. They pay a school twice as much for a kid of uneducated background (by the way without results). It is a vicious circle: kids don't have a chance this way. You can only keep an open, free community with mutual respect if the people you give that freedom and respect, reciprocate the favour. Epic fail.

Result is now, that there is no Holland anymore as it used to be. And that is a shame. And the reason why people vote for GW.

Nil, you yourself say you want nobody to tell you what to wear, you want to make your own choices, you disapprove terror. Basically you don't like anything that comes from the good old Muslim world, like I don;t like the stuff from the old Christian world. What an old book like Koran or Bible sais exactly is not relevant anymore. We live in the modern world now, and anyone, including any muslim, should act like he is supposed to act in the surroundings he (or she of course) lives.

GW has been accused of using the muslims as scapegoat. That is too easy. Even the things he shows in Fitna, these are facts. There are too many issues, and the western world is reacting. People are indeed scared of Islamification. And for a reason as there continue to come people saying that that is want they want. I can just hope that this all vanishes in the future, when new generations come. As soon as the majority of the muslim community acts like they are Dutch, German or whatever passport they held, and after that Muslim, problem is over, people not scared anymore. If you first of all want to be muslim, you do not belong in the western world. I like to think (I hope) that that is the main message GW is trying to give, despite all this rhetoric sh*t that comes from his mouth.
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Old 18.10.2010, 00:08
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

What intrigues me is why middle-aged, right-wing, politicians tend to have big hair. Geert Wilders is a peroxide blonde and our local version Oskar Freysinger has a ponytail. In my distant youth, mention peroxide blondes or ponytails, and you'd have a totally different image.

Is this a right wing plot, to further undermine our feelings of stability? I believe that we should be on our guard.
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Old 18.10.2010, 00:23
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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What intrigues me is why middle-aged, right-wing, politicians tend to have big hair. Geert Wilders is a peroxide blonde and our local version Oskar Freysinger has a ponytail. In my distant youth, mention peroxide blondes or ponytails, and you'd have a totally different image.

Is this a right wing plot, to further undermine our feelings of stability? I believe that we should be on our guard.
With Wilders, I think it is to distinguish himself. I also think it's to offset his less than pale skin.

But I don't think he can be classed as a simple right wing politician. For many social issues, he's quite strongly on the left.
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