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  #161  
Old 18.10.2010, 00:26
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Yes, it is not always as easy as at first sight. What do you do too if a criminal has a wife and children? International Law also prevents countries from sending back those from countries where they are likely to be persecuted at high risk if returned, like Afghanistan, etc.

I completely agree with your reaction re returning criminals - as said, at the end of the day, they make the choice and have to take consequences- but it can be very complicated. From the UK perspective, imagine a Ugandan Asian kicked out by Idi Amin after a couple of generations in Africa, and then sent back to 'India' after committing a crime?




When the person who commits the crime has been living in the country their whole life, were born in the country, are 2nd generation or have worked and paid taxes into the country then, yes, it doesn't make sense to "deport" them - they then should go to prison in Switzerland, whether they're Swiss citizens or not.

But if the person has emigrated to Switzerland or sought asylum here (or the UK or any other country for that matter) within the last decade and/or if they haven't established themselves within society, contributed, learned the language, integrated and then they commit a serious crime (I'm talking murder and rape) then they lose their rights to stay.

Once someone rapes someone else or murders them - why should the tax payers of the host country then pay to keep that person in prison? And if they have to return to a regime or a dictatorship then perhaps they'll think twice before raping someone. In this case International Law is protecting the criminal and sticking a finger up at the victims.

If for example, someone arrived in Switzerland/England/ last year with their family and last week raped a young girl on the streets, then that person should be deported, the family should not (as the family didn't rape the girl).

Last edited by Longbyt; 18.10.2010 at 12:09. Reason: Please leave the square brackets and their contents in place when shortening quotes.
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  #162  
Old 18.10.2010, 09:24
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Or maybe I am just crazy to want to label everything?? Yes


In the beginning nobody cared, cause they did the cleaning work etc etc, until suddenly it appeared that a huge group went on sick leave, their sons were let free and not raised (meaning let free outside until late, school results not monitored). The whole family was being sent over, coming from very remote places from Turkey and Morocco, not being educated. Women not allowed to leave the house, learn the language etc etc etc. Someone from and born in the country could have been and did the same...


Nil, you yourself say you want nobody to tell you what to wear, you want to make your own choices, you disapprove terror. Basically you don't like anything that comes from the good old Muslim world, like I don;t like the stuff from the old Christian world. What an old book like Koran or Bible sais exactly is not relevant anymore. We live in the modern world now, and anyone, including any muslim, should act like he is supposed to act in the surroundings he (or she of course) lives.
You have to learn more about the history, culture and religion. No offence but you don't know that much. The Old good muslim world wasn't like it is today. The modern world is the trigger of what is the muslim world today. Look on internet about what was Egypt, Iran, Irak, Afghanistan 50 years and less ago. It wasn't like it is now, it was much more open then now. What happened? International Politics of some big countries coming in a screwing with them, etc...

In Egypt in Anouar El-Sadate times, you didn't have much of cover women, They had some trouble with the muslim brother group and sadly, someone, somewhere let them became what they are today... Before the Talibans, women were working, learning, dancing, going out, having a life.

Where you are right is about the Books not being relevant anymore. The Books were written to give some guide line to people back then. It was great for back then, it has now to be ajusted and interpreted with this time now, to a certain level. (Same as the Vatican who should do the same).

Most of the people with education are able to take the good and leave the bad. If you keep your people without this education, you can control them. So can we blame those poor chaps without educations to believe what they believe? NO. Can we blame our gouvernement to do nothing about this? Hell YES!

It is the the Muslims or Islam the problem. It is the lack of education in their countries and lack of integration in our countries.
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  #163  
Old 18.10.2010, 10:10
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Not even GW says that...
Big difference between me and you (ie. GW and Pashosh) is that not only do I think that of extremist and radical muslims but also of jewish, christian and other religious extremists.
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  #164  
Old 18.10.2010, 10:38
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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OK you got a point, thanks. Still, call me naive but I see these war acts mainly as a reaction on 9/11. It became very clear that Osama bin Laden, in the name of Islam, declared total war to the west.
Question: If it really was a reaction to 9/11: I'd get Afghanistan, bin Laden was hiding there and the Taliban were covering him. But why Iraq? The US government tried for a year or so the same trick over and over again: Discussing "connections" between Saddam and Osama... everyone in his right mind sees that a religious extremist has absolutely zero in common with a egozentric dictator... on the contrary - given Saddams track record, I would guess al Qaeda would welcome him with a bullet to the head... when there were too many people seeing through this too easily the Bush administration came up with the entire "WMD" story - and from day one I was not able to believe it: Saddams weapons were mainly from the US... a young CIA guy named Collin Powell got them for him in the early 80s to fight some Mullahs in Iran. How could the US possible not know what weapons he had...

So: I cannot really explain why the US went into Iraq, I personally believe it is a mix of oil/economic interests with GW personal crusade to finish the job his dad didn't. In anyway: Yes, thinking that the US went to war purely for 9/11 is in my eyes naive.

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Multiculturalism in Germany has failed - and that's the view of the big boss...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...l-society.html
LOL! The "big boss" is a CONSERVATIVE. Asking her about immigration is like asking Margret Thatcher about trade unions...

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It is the same with everything else you give a finger then sooner or later there is a risk of the whole arm being chopped off.
under sharia only if you steal...
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  #165  
Old 18.10.2010, 10:52
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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LOL! The "big boss" is a CONSERVATIVE. Asking her about immigration is like asking Margret Thatcher about trade unions...
David Cameron is a conservative, doesn't mean he is anti immigation. So is Merkl an extreme right winger then ?
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  #166  
Old 18.10.2010, 11:18
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11562598

These terror threats just don't help things either really. Why don't the majority of law abiding, decent muslims stand up and officially speak out about these nutters?
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  #167  
Old 18.10.2010, 11:32
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11562598

These terror threats just don't help things either really. Why don't the majority of law abiding, decent muslims stand up and officially speak out about these nutters?
Fear, I dare say..
Guess they feel that "majority" in this case isnīt on their side.

Those threats so get on my nerves!!
I feel they only do that in order to scare people, make them maybe more aware of their existance, make them (us) feel like they will sooner or later rule the world and therefore trying to tame us in order to come to the dark side if we wish to survive..
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  #168  
Old 18.10.2010, 11:33
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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David Cameron is a conservative, doesn't mean he is anti immigation. So is Merkl an extreme right winger then ?


The CDU, Merkels party, says that their goal is to not leave any space more right winged or conservative for another democratic party that accepts the constitution as it is. So in Swiss terms they cover SVP, BDP and CVP in one... this makes the party pretty wide from some Bavarian populists that can compete with the SVP in terms of their unbalanced arguments to some established conservative heavy weights in economics...

Merkel is
- an Eastern German - so she did not grew up in a multi-cultural environment except of maybe some exchanges to fellow communists' countries - Islam or to say it more directly: The Turkish - are not really her area of expertise or interest.
- living in Berlin - where the immigration problems are the strongest.
- heading a very complex German CDU... and sometimes you need to take a position to please some wings in your party:
1. In the last two months, the immigration debate was number one in the press - you need to have an opinion and as the leader of the CDU it is pretty clear which one that is.
2. This debate was fully owned by Thilo Sarrazin - a former politician who wrote a very critical and questionable book on the topic. Sarazin got a lot of sympathies for speaking out some things in the line of DBs last post in this thread by many and on the other hand was widely critizised for some arguments that were plain stupid... but from Merkels position the worst aspect: He is a SPD member.

So imagine a country discussing immigration for weeks - most CDU voters expressing that they are highly critical about it - and the entire discussion is dominated by the opposition: Sarrazin on the one side and the rest of the bunch on the other side... it's her job to make people understand that if they are against immigration, they should not buy Sarrazins book but vote CDU... so what happens is that suddenly all conservative politicians come up with some outrageous new ideas "how to deal with the problem"...
I watched a good discussion yesterday on the ARD asking "are "pub platitudes" and catch cries the way our politicians want to get the trust back?" http://daserste.ndr.de/annewill/
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  #169  
Old 18.10.2010, 11:45
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

I am really depressed after watching first part of fitna and the truth is that there are some stupid muslims exsist out there and most of them are illiterate or led by an illiterate so called scholar of islam.

Being from Pakistan i have very closely seen those fundamentalist but they are nothing more then a bunch of people there is a strong resistance against them, i have a strong feeling we muslims should do more then just words against these fundamentalist before its too late, on the other hand west world should help us not to support fundamentalist like Wilders because he is nothing more but a recruitment bonanza for AlQaeda and other fundamentalists as HB mentioned

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We call it a feedback loop in science. Crazy Wilders spouting silliness, then crazy Muslims who can't take any criticism without reacting crazy. And so on.
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  #170  
Old 18.10.2010, 11:49
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I am really depressed after watching first part of fitna and the truth is that there are some stupid muslims exsist out there and most of them are illiterate or led by an illiterate so called scholar of islam.

Being from Pakistan i have very closely seen those fundamentalist but they are nothing more then a bunch of people there is a strong resistance against them, i have a strong feeling we muslims should do more then just words against these fundamentalist before its too late, on the other hand west world should help us not to support fundamentalist like Wilders because he is nothing more but a recruitment bonanza for AlQaeda and other fundamentalists.
Couldnīt agree with you more..

Fitna was a bit too much for me, esp that scene when those brutal monsters read something standing above a prisoner and then slash his head off (with audio..just as bad if not worse than the actual visual effect if I may add..)

Plus teaching kids to say everybody who isnīt muslim should be killed without remorse!!??
Tragic and unbeliveable..
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  #171  
Old 18.10.2010, 11:54
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Couldnīt agree with you more..

Fitna was a bit too much for me, esp that scene when those brutal monsters read something standing above a prisoner and then slash his head off (with audio..just as bad if not worse than the actual visual effect if I may add..)

Plus teaching kids to say everybody who isnīt muslim should be killed without remorse!!??
Tragic and unbeliveable..

I dont know what school of thought they are from my family never teached me such a thing they always told me to respect my parents, brother, sisters, neighbours, friends, elders, i must not steal, cheat or lie
and told me that was my obligation from islam

I am a Muslim and i am PROUD of it.
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  #172  
Old 18.10.2010, 12:03
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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I dont know what school of thought they are from my family never teached me such a thing they always told me to respect my parents, brother, sisters, neighbours, freinds, elders, i must not steal, cheat or lie
and told me that was my obligation from islam

I am a Muslim and i am PROUD of it.
You should be proud of what and who you are!
Their politics and twisted minds donīt do you and any other normal person justice, whether you are muslim or not.
Their state of mind is simply so wrong and inhuman that it is hard for me to even understand it all.
Thatīs why I ask many questions and thatīs why many of them donīt get answered - because there is no such thing as elaboration in those acts and teachings, like they are all brainwashed, I swear to God!
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  #173  
Old 18.10.2010, 12:15
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Big difference between me and you (ie. GW and Pashosh) is that not only do I think that of extremist and radical muslims but also of jewish, christian and other religious extremists.
Wrong - the big difference is that I base my posts on facts. You claimed, for example that Singapore is Muslim country and other fascinating tidbits.

Jewish/Christian/Jedi Knights extremists have yet to take hostages and/or inhabit correctional instititions in higher percentage than their part of the population - please try to stay on topic.

Interesting that nobody groaned at you for calling poor uneducated Muslim immigrants Scum.
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  #174  
Old 18.10.2010, 12:36
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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(blah blah removed)

Interesting that nobody groaned at you for calling poor uneducated Muslim immigrants Scum.
you can groan....but since you think the same thing
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  #175  
Old 18.10.2010, 12:38
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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you can groan....but since you think the same thing
Where did you learn to read minds ? you should ask for your money back.

Unlike you - I'm not racist.
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  #176  
Old 18.10.2010, 12:53
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11562598

These terror threats just don't help things either really. Why don't the majority of law abiding, decent muslims stand up and officially speak out about these nutters?
There are reactions in the arab press, but as mentioned earlier by another poster it does not arrive to western media because it sells less in terms of audience I can give you some references:

- A koweiti journalist of a high-profile newspaper (Al-Qabas) wrote this:
one day muslims and arabs will regret old europe if extremists succeed in imposing their "rules". (article in french, use google translate for english)

- What is moderate islam? some thoughts presented in a US symposium
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  #177  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:00
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Where did you learn to read minds ? you should ask for your money back.

Unlike you - I'm not racist.
OK keep playing and enjoying your illusionary world.
You just joined (again) my ignore list, so don't waste bandwidth.
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  #178  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:04
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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OK keep playing and enjoying your illusionary world.
You just joined (again) my ignore list, so don't waste bandwidth.
At least you didn't call me Scum, so I guess it could get worse.
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  #179  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:21
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

I think I need to correct a small thing here...

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When I travelled through West Sumatra (or Aceh?) (an islamic province)
I think it should be Aceh, province with regional levels of Sharia law.

please continue...
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  #180  
Old 18.10.2010, 13:42
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Re: Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

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Jewish/Christian/Jedi Knights extremists have yet to take hostages and/or inhabit correctional instititions in higher percentage than their part of the population - please try to stay on topic.
FAIL

Did I told you that you were a troll?
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