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Old 31.10.2010, 00:55
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4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

There are so many things wrong with this* that I just don't know where to begin. Yet another reason to live in Switzerland ... or not in New York, anyway.

It's very sad that an old woman was killed as a result of an accident, but what does her estate have to gain by near-destroying the life of a pre-school child and her parents? Nothing but the tainted whiff of money, I would guess. It certainly won't bring the deceased woman back to life.

*In my opinion, of course.


New York child sued for woman's death after bike crash

A New York child can be sued for crashing a bicycle into an elderly pedestrian and causing injuries that led to her death, a judge has ruled.

Juliet Breitman and another child were four years old when they raced their small bicycles on a Manhattan street and ran into Claire Menagh, 87.

Juliet's lawyer had argued Juliet was too young to be held negligent.

The judge disagreed, ruling Juliet's lawyer had presented no evidence she lacked intelligence or maturity.

According to court filings, in April 2009, Juliet Breitman and Jacob Kohn were accompanied by their mothers, Dana Breitman and Rachel Kohn, as they raced their bicycles along the pavement near the East River in New York's Manhattan borough.

'No bright line'

The children struck Ms Menagh, knocking her to the ground. She underwent surgery for a fractured hip and died three months later.

Ms Menagh - and later her son, acting as executor of her estate - sued the children, arguing they were "negligent in their operation and control of their bicycles". The estate also sued Dana Breitman and Rachel Kohn, saying they had consented to the race.

Juliet's lawyer sought to have the case dismissed, filing with the court a copy of Juliet's birth certificate showing she was four years and nine months old at the time of the accident.

Citing several cases involving young children who had been in accidents, New York Supreme Court Judge Paul Wooten ruled that Juliet, now six years old, could be sued.

While he noted that the law presumes children under age four are incapable of negligence, "for infants above the age of four, there is no bright line rule", he wrote in the decision.

He also wrote that the Juliet's lawyer had presented no evidence as to the child's lack of intelligence or maturity, nor that "a child of similar age and capacity" would not have understood the danger of riding a bicycle into an old woman.
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Old 31.10.2010, 01:02
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Re: ç-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

Hopefully still a Civil ruling. Had the respondents legal team filed a proper response the Judge may have ruled differently. It would be very hard to prove negligence or intent against such young kids. I suppose a good reason for insurance, both legal and liability.

Someone died, someone wants financial restorative jutice in the name of retribution. What better place than the US ?
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Old 31.10.2010, 02:02
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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There are so many things wrong with this* that I just don't know where to begin. Yet another reason to live in Switzerland ... or not in New York, anyway.

It's very sad that an old woman was killed as a result of an accident, but what does her estate have to gain by near-destroying the life of a pre-school child and her parents? Nothing but the tainted whiff of money, I would guess. It certainly won't bring the deceased woman back to life.

*In my opinion, of course.


New York child sued for woman's death after bike crash

A New York child can be sued for crashing a bicycle into an elderly pedestrian and causing injuries that led to her death, a judge has ruled.

Juliet Breitman and another child were four years old when they raced their small bicycles on a Manhattan street and ran into Claire Menagh, 87.

Juliet's lawyer had argued Juliet was too young to be held negligent.

The judge disagreed, ruling Juliet's lawyer had presented no evidence she lacked intelligence or maturity.

According to court filings, in April 2009, Juliet Breitman and Jacob Kohn were accompanied by their mothers, Dana Breitman and Rachel Kohn, as they raced their bicycles along the pavement near the East River in New York's Manhattan borough.

'No bright line'

The children struck Ms Menagh, knocking her to the ground. She underwent surgery for a fractured hip and died three months later.

Ms Menagh - and later her son, acting as executor of her estate - sued the children, arguing they were "negligent in their operation and control of their bicycles". The estate also sued Dana Breitman and Rachel Kohn, saying they had consented to the race.

Juliet's lawyer sought to have the case dismissed, filing with the court a copy of Juliet's birth certificate showing she was four years and nine months old at the time of the accident.

Citing several cases involving young children who had been in accidents, New York Supreme Court Judge Paul Wooten ruled that Juliet, now six years old, could be sued.

While he noted that the law presumes children under age four are incapable of negligence, "for infants above the age of four, there is no bright line rule", he wrote in the decision.

He also wrote that the Juliet's lawyer had presented no evidence as to the child's lack of intelligence or maturity, nor that "a child of similar age and capacity" would not have understood the danger of riding a bicycle into an old woman.
And I am suing 22yards for putting this thread up,which in turn, making me shaking my head at this gross stupidity . I definitely have a whiplash , I think
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Old 31.10.2010, 02:38
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

But isn't this why in Switzerland we have assurance responsabilité civile? So that if you or your children cause harm to someone or their property the insurance pays and you're not screwed?
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Old 31.10.2010, 02:55
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

But would anyone in Switzerland try to screw you in such circumstances? (I was going to say "try to screw a 4-year-old" but it sounded slightly wrong ...)

Last edited by Guest; 31.10.2010 at 09:48. Reason: Typo
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Old 31.10.2010, 04:37
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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But would anyone in Switzerland try to screw you in such sircumstances? (I was going to say "try to screw a 4-year-old" but it sounded slightly wrong ...)
Are they really trying to "screw" anyone? I mean, yes, it's a bit sh!t to sue a 4 year old. But the family of the old lady were harmed. The way it would be handled in Switzerland of course is more civilized in that the insurance company of the injured party would deal with the insurance of the family of the 4 yr old. Thus no one would end up suing anyone in court directly.

I'm not condoning suing a 4 yr old! I just think that if this happened in Switzerland the 4 yr old would probably be held responsible through the RC insurance. So, ultimately agreeing with your second sentence "Yet another reason to live in Switzerland ... or not in New York, anyway.".
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Old 31.10.2010, 05:51
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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Are they really trying to "screw" anyone? I mean, yes, it's a bit sh!t to sue a 4 year old. But the family of the old lady were harmed. The way it would be handled in Switzerland of course is more civilized in that the insurance company of the injured party would deal with the insurance of the family of the 4 yr old. Thus no one would end up suing anyone in court directly.

I'm not condoning suing a 4 yr old! I just think that if this happened in Switzerland the 4 yr old would probably be held responsible through the RC insurance. So, ultimately agreeing with your second sentence "Yet another reason to live in Switzerland ... or not in New York, anyway.".
An accident is just that - an accident. How can anyone prove that a four-year-old could conceive of a person dying because they were racing another four-year-old on their bike? Surely, even under American law, that understanding would have to be proven before this law suit could succeed?
Also, we don't have the full details of the accident in this report - could the old woman have suddenly stepped out from a gate, or other visually-occluded position, directly into the path of the two children and thereby caused the accident? If so, the child's family should launch a counter-suit for damage to her bike ...

My biggest problem here is the assumption that because somebody died, somebody else must be 'held responsible' and 'pay' for it - I honestly don't believe I would ever seek to hold any child liable for the death of my mother/grandmother/whatever in a case like this. Or seek monetary 'compensation' in any case.
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Old 31.10.2010, 07:14
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

One point I make is that these people never consider PR - and while the lawyers will, it's certainly in their best interest to keep it quiet. Now, the single most known, reported and significant action in that lady's life was to sue a four year old for crashing her bicycle. Is that what she'd have wanted? Her name will be associated with this forever, it will be everyone's last memory of her.
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Old 31.10.2010, 08:26
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

Of course the child can be sued -- defeating a motion to dismiss is very easy, the plaintiff just needs to have a plausible claim under the law.

whether the deceased woman's estate will actually win is highly doubtful, considering that the standard for negligence here is whether this particular 4-year old acted without the prudence of an average 4-year old in this situation.

it sets bad precedent to simply let children off for the torts they commit based on age. then they can run around and do whatever they like without any consequences. keep in mind that in the US, parents are not liable for the torts of their children unless the parents themselves were negligent by not supervising their children (or did a bad job in supervising them).

even if the plaintiff prevails here, they're not going to collect anything from this child. her life will not be "ruined" like the OP claims.
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Old 31.10.2010, 08:58
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

Somehow I was amazed not to read that no one is demanding the death penalty..... It would be a clear sign out to all wannabe 4 year old homicidal maniacs to keep their pushbikes off the sidewalk and stay on the freeway like all the other Kindergarten kids.....
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Old 31.10.2010, 09:27
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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One point I make is that these people never consider PR - and while the lawyers will, it's certainly in their best interest to keep it quiet. Now, the single most known, reported and significant action in that lady's life was to sue a four year old for crashing her bicycle. Is that what she'd have wanted? Her name will be associated with this forever, it will be everyone's last memory of her.
I think the poisonous old trout was fully aware of it before she slipped off her mortal coil...

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Ms Menagh - and later her son, acting as executor of her estate - sued the children, arguing they were "negligent in their operation and control of their bicycles". The estate also sued Dana Breitman and Rachel Kohn, saying they had consented to the race.
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Old 31.10.2010, 09:28
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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An accident is just that - an accident. How can anyone prove that a four-year-old could conceive of a person dying because they were racing another four-year-old on their bike? Surely, even under American law, that understanding would have to be proven before this law suit could succeed?
Also, we don't have the full details of the accident in this report - could the old woman have suddenly stepped out from a gate, or other visually-occluded position, directly into the path of the two children and thereby caused the accident? If so, the child's family should launch a counter-suit for damage to her bike ...

My biggest problem here is the assumption that because somebody died, somebody else must be 'held responsible' and 'pay' for it - I honestly don't believe I would ever seek to hold any child liable for the death of my mother/grandmother/whatever in a case like this. Or seek monetary 'compensation' in any case.
Accidents are accidents, but we still have car insurance don't we ?
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Old 31.10.2010, 09:39
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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Accidents are accidents, but we still have car insurance don't we ?
And people still get married, what's your point?
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Old 31.10.2010, 09:46
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

Is it possible that a lawyer was watching the incident, and told the old woman to sue? Or at least met her in the hospital.
Yes it is not in the best interests of pedestrians, to let children ride their bikes on the pavement, but in New York there is little place else.

The son of the 87 year old, possibly himself also a grandfather already, (or not, else he would know how 4 year olds behave) he must be around 60, if not older.... should he not be thanking the kids? Now he has his inheritance, which he obviously has been waiting for(!)

I know of this guy in the UK, where if his mother died, he'd be made a king..
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Old 31.10.2010, 09:49
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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And people still get married, what's your point?
People/The Courts accept that there are accidents, but that does not absolve the negligent party from having to make good all losses. 'But it was an accident' is a reason, not an excuse.
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Old 31.10.2010, 11:05
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

I think it is the parents of those 4 year olds who are responsible for this tragedy.

The other day a young child running in a store almost knocked me over. (I am on crutches). First his mother asked me if I was okay, which I was, and then she disciplined her child.

It is a parent's job not only to keep their children safe but also to stop them from causing harm to another person. I think too many parents stress the former and ignore the latter. A few years ago I was coming out of the post office and a very young girl coming down the road on a scooter couldn't stop and came flying into me. I tripped and my glasses broke. The mother was carrying on about whether her child was okay. She was fine. The mother said she was not responsible, we argued, she refused to give me her details to pay for my glasses. If it was her dog who knocked me over, I bet she would have been more cooperative.

Perhaps the only positive thing that will come out of this case is that parents will take the job of parenting more seriously.
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Old 31.10.2010, 11:28
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

So, if the plantiff wins.. what are they going to do?? Garnish her allowance? Perhaps she can pay in licorice.. or pawn her candy necklace?
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Old 31.10.2010, 12:00
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

On one hand, I think that actually suing a four-year-old child is beyond what is ridiculous, on the other hand...

How many of you with children do NOT react as if by the time they're coming close to 5 that they really really need to watch where they're going?

You would scold your child for running into someone, wouldn't you?

So, now something has come up where the law says "yep, she needs to be scolded"... there really isn't a huge difference.

She's not being tried for murder, she's being sued for not being more careful.


Also though, given the reaction from ya'll, I'm curious. At what age do you seriously expect children to know better than to run into people?

I think that "nearly five" is old enough for reasonable expectation. After all, even if they're not in some pre-school, they will be starting kindergarten soon and will be expected to be mindful of others then, it is a lesson they should already know by then too.


Also though, I think ultimately it is the fault of the mothers for "allowing" the children to race their bicycles on the sidewalk. Ride yes, it will help the kids keep up a bit better than walking, race no. Even in Manhattan, I'm sure there are more appropriate places for children to get wild on their bicycles.
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Old 31.10.2010, 12:07
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

Wait a minute... a judge said that a child, 4 years 9 months old, IS intelligent and mature?
The experts should have investigate the judge's intelligence and maturity, not the child's.

As to the parents' role, there I can imagine there is room for juridical discussions. But that would not mean getting a child that age on trial.
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Old 31.10.2010, 12:22
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Re: 4-year-old U.S. child to be sued for negligence in death of woman

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Wait a minute... a judge said that a child, 4 years 9 months old, IS intelligent and mature?
The experts should have investigate the judge's intelligence and maturity, not the child's.

As to the parents' role, there I can imagine there is room for juridical discussions. But that would not mean getting a child that age on trial.

I think you're misinterpreting what the judge said.

The judge said that she's as "intelligent and mature" as any other 4 year old... she's not a special needs case AND as such, there is reasonable expectation that she knows how to watch where she's going. It was a comparison to other cases involving 4 year old children, there is precedent set.

IF you had a 4yo child and you tell that child NOT to do something, do you expect that child NOT to do it... or do you expect said child to do it anyhow?

IF you think the child should react as you desire to such instructions, you do actually agree with the judge. You may not want to because the case seems extreme (I agree, from a human stand point, what in the world is "the estate" doing suing a 4yo anyhow? ) BUT so far as what can and should be legally expected of a 4yo, I have to agree with the judge.
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