Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 13.11.2014, 12:27
Leggat's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Lenzburg
Posts: 234
Groaned at 8 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 252 Times in 116 Posts
Leggat has earned the respect of manyLeggat has earned the respect of manyLeggat has earned the respect of many
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
Not sure any sensible person can hold Ched Evans to account for what idiots post on twitter.
Completely agreed.

Quote:
If you get into a car to drive whilst drunk, you are willfully putting people at a much greater risk than driving whilst sober.
Again, agreed.

I didn't mean to short change the gravity of manslaughter, but on first contemplation the repercussions for the victim do not persist, well, not in the same way for a rape victim. I will think about that, though. [this goes back to appropriate sentencing.]

And a disclaimer; I am assuming for the sake of this conversation that the Evans case was properly prosecuted, and that evidence led directly to his conviction. I don't know enough about the case, and frankly won't give it more thought than I already have. If I met Evans, regardless of actual culpability, I'd like to think I'd still afford him a basic human respect up to the point that I can empirically determine his character, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 15.11.2014, 22:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,412
Groaned at 167 Times in 116 Posts
Thanked 4,722 Times in 1,821 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

looks like Sheffield will not offer a contract because of the public response

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-striker.html

I don't agree personally, but the weight of opposition is huge now.
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 16.11.2014, 06:59
CathHarmony's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Best City, Greatest Nation
Posts: 1,412
Groaned at 197 Times in 109 Posts
Thanked 1,208 Times in 641 Posts
CathHarmony has a reputation beyond reputeCathHarmony has a reputation beyond reputeCathHarmony has a reputation beyond reputeCathHarmony has a reputation beyond reputeCathHarmony has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Name:  rape.png
Views: 1823
Size:  238.2 KB
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank CathHarmony for this useful post:
  #184  
Old 16.11.2014, 07:31
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 13,950
Groaned at 272 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 17,101 Times in 7,246 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
I didn't mean to short change the gravity of manslaughter, but on first contemplation the repercussions for the victim do not persist
oh really? what is the average period of time until victims of manslaughter come back to life?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #185  
Old 16.11.2014, 16:05
crazykittylady's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Glatt
Posts: 767
Groaned at 117 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 687 Times in 341 Posts
crazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
oh really? what is the average period of time until victims of manslaughter come back to life?
Well, it's not so much the victims that suffer afterwards as their loved ones.

Rape is premeditated, manslaughter by definition is the act of killing without meaning to kill whether through stupidity or .. well, stupidity.
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 16.11.2014, 16:10
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 8,506
Groaned at 346 Times in 221 Posts
Thanked 14,210 Times in 6,227 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Rape is premeditated, manslaughter by definition is the act of killing without meaning to kill whether through stupidity or .. well, stupidity.
Rubbish. On both counts.

Rape may not be premeditated.

Manslaughter is not defined as (though may include) killing without intention, just without pre-meditation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #187  
Old 16.11.2014, 16:23
crazykittylady's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Glatt
Posts: 767
Groaned at 117 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 687 Times in 341 Posts
crazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Rubbish. On both counts.

Rape may not be premeditated.

Manslaughter is not defined as (though may include) killing without intention, just without pre-meditation.
I'm pretty sure someone raping someone is not so stupid as to know that if she's not interested in sex, it's rape. Only a moron or someone that has some serious narcissistic entitlement issues would have an excuse as stupid as "woooops, I raped her."

The definition of manslaughter differs from place of jurisdiction. The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind, or the circumstances under which the killing occurred (mitigating factors). Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter; however, this is not the case in all jurisdictions.

In the case of drunken driving, a stupid person, being stupid, doesn't realise they can kill someone while driving drunk. Their crime is manslaughter due to stupidity, not someone intending to kill people by driving.
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 16.11.2014, 17:13
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 8,506
Groaned at 346 Times in 221 Posts
Thanked 14,210 Times in 6,227 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
I'm pretty sure someone raping someone is not so stupid as to know that if she's not interested in sex, it's rape. Only a moron or someone that has some serious narcissistic entitlement issues would have an excuse as stupid as "woooops, I raped her."
So? That's not what is meant by premeditation, i.e. a deliberate plan to commit rape. As has been pointed out, a sex act can become a rape at the moment one partner, normally the female, says "no". The fact of the man being all prepared and unable to stop himself continuing doesn't make it any less 'rape', but it sure as hell isn't premeditated.

Quote:
View Post
In the case of drunken driving, a stupid person, being stupid, doesn't realise they can kill someone while driving drunk. Their crime is manslaughter due to stupidity, not someone intending to kill people by driving.
But manslaughter may also (and as you point out, and indeed as I already had up there ^^^, its definition varies from place to place) be a deliberate act, just not premeditated.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #189  
Old 16.11.2014, 17:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,412
Groaned at 167 Times in 116 Posts
Thanked 4,722 Times in 1,821 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Its a very informative - and emotive - card. I think most people know, even Ched Evans that no consent is rape, but I think that is not his argument is it ? his argument is an equivalent conversation:

"Hello"
"hello"
"Fancy a shag ?"
"Yes go on then"
<shag>
<sleep>
<wake>
"Cripes I cant remember what we did last night, did we have sex ?"
"yes"
"thats rape, you raped me you bastard, call 999 etc etc"

Of course he could be a lying twat and Im amazed his girlfriend is staying with him, but I don't actually think his argument is that she did not respond, it was that she consented on the evening and the lady herself as said she cant remember.

If the line of law is that someone may consent to sex but if they do then can subsequently say they did not in fact because they were drunk, it leaves the male in a dangerous position whenever alcholhol is involved. on the other side of the coin, of course, men taking advantage of drunk women is to be dealt with in teh severest fashion.

its very much not black and white when you get into the details I think..
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 16.11.2014, 17:51
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,400
Groaned at 434 Times in 338 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Make it simple, if the girl is drunk, don't do it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #191  
Old 16.11.2014, 18:30
Ace1's Avatar
A modal singularity
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 8,506
Groaned at 346 Times in 221 Posts
Thanked 14,210 Times in 6,227 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Make it simple, if the girl is drunk, don't do it.
Unless the girl is your wife

But seriously, let's define "drunk", in this context, as being sufficiently impaired as to not be aware of what they're doing. "Drunk" alone is not an absolute.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 16.11.2014, 18:46
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,412
Groaned at 167 Times in 116 Posts
Thanked 4,722 Times in 1,821 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Make it simple, if the girl is drunk, don't do it.
Not sure if you've ever ventured out on a Saturday night in any city centre in the uk Nil, but there are many a thousand revellers having a great drunken night out and many many of them go on to have sex. Definitely the message would solve the problem (no alcohol if you plan to have sex) but not sure if it's really realistic in today's society.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Mikers for this useful post:
  #193  
Old 17.11.2014, 23:02
crazykittylady's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Glatt
Posts: 767
Groaned at 117 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 687 Times in 341 Posts
crazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
So? That's not what is meant by premeditation, i.e. a deliberate plan to commit rape. As has been pointed out, a sex act can become a rape at the moment one partner, normally the female, says "no". The fact of the man being all prepared and unable to stop himself continuing doesn't make it any less 'rape', but it sure as hell isn't premeditated.
Rape is never about a man being "unable to stop himself," it's about a man not giving a damn that his victim is a human being and deciding to rape her.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at crazykittylady for this post:
  #194  
Old 17.11.2014, 23:25
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,400
Groaned at 434 Times in 338 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Not sure if you've ever ventured out on a Saturday night in any city centre in the uk Nil, but there are many a thousand revellers having a great drunken night out and many many of them go on to have sex. Definitely the message would solve the problem (no alcohol if you plan to have sex) but not sure if it's really realistic in today's society.
Time for a new slogan.

Don't drink and drive, don't drink and have sex..

I got your point. Teaching people to be responsible is hard work.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #195  
Old 17.11.2014, 23:39
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,412
Groaned at 167 Times in 116 Posts
Thanked 4,722 Times in 1,821 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Rape is never about a man being "unable to stop himself," it's about a man not giving a damn that his victim is a human being and deciding to rape her.
It's about a person not giving a damn that their victim is a human being and deciding to rape them.

It's not always male to female.
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 17.11.2014, 23:45
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Not sure if you've ever ventured out on a Saturday night in any city centre in the uk Nil, but there are many a thousand revellers having a great drunken night out and many many of them go on to have sex. Definitely the message would solve the problem (no alcohol if you plan to have sex) but not sure if it's really realistic in today's society.

Talking of these thousands of revellers, alcohol is what is keeping the gene pool alive, without it........there'd be certainly far less shagging, in fact a lot of people wouldn't get laid at all !
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #197  
Old 20.11.2014, 04:59
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,435
Groaned at 84 Times in 78 Posts
Thanked 2,868 Times in 1,180 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Many object to Evans returning to Sheffield Utd because he denies he is a rapist despite his conviction. You can only be rehabilitated if you admit you did something wrong in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 20.11.2014, 08:19
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 5,322
Groaned at 58 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 2,688 Times in 1,608 Posts
SOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond reputeSOBEIT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Many object to Evans returning to Sheffield Utd because he denies he is a rapist despite his conviction. You can only be rehabilitated if you admit you did something wrong in the first place.
Why would admit to any wrong doing is if he adament he did nothing wrong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank SOBEIT for this useful post:
  #199  
Old 20.11.2014, 09:12
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,541
Groaned at 193 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 18,099 Times in 7,374 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

Quote:
View Post
Why would admit to any wrong doing is if he adament he did nothing wrong.
If he's right, then he did nothing wrong. Under the law, however, having been convicted, he was wrong.

It's a really bugger if you're innocent but were found guilty.You can't with any integrity admit the offence, and if you deny it, you're a bastard. Of course, he might simply be in denial - he did rape her, but doesn't think it counts as rape. It'd all be so much easier if people were honest.

As far as not having sex with anyone drunk, people in alcoholic black outs (which can occur during any binge drinking) may be able to perform complex tasks, but afterwards retain no memory.

I'm sure the jury were presented with all the relevant facts and medical opinion.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 20.11.2014, 09:26
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Where is your line? [Rape Awareness]

In the Ched Evans case, how were they able to prove he did it? I thought that in order to be convicted in the UK you need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a crime was committed. Surely in this case it would have been one drunken account verses another?

There's obviously the events leading up to what happened that can be considered, but in the end it all boils down to two conflicting arguments about what happened.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
consensual sex or rape




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Swiss Spatial Awareness raincookie Complaints corner 57 25.09.2012 14:56
Prostate Cancer Awareness grynch Family matters/health 11 13.09.2010 10:27
Mass rape epidemic coming soon to a country you live in... Canadian_dude International affairs/politics 7 18.11.2009 15:48
Awareness test Nev General off-topic 4 09.04.2008 13:08
Gang rape of 13 year old girl in Zurich? jamaicanRUM Daily life 63 23.11.2006 17:10


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0