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  #21  
Old 06.09.2011, 00:48
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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I agree, but cum grano salis. For instance, in Standard German, "Lauf!" mainly means "Run!" In Swiss German it doesn't. Here you'd have to say (or yell), "Renn!" or, even more vernacular, "Seckle!" Folks, please don't ask me to explain the origin of this one.

Oh, and there also is the Standard German "lauschen" as the ethymological sibling of the Swiss German "lose." I didn't list that to prevent even more confusion.
It comes from old English "Shake the bag "
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  #22  
Old 06.09.2011, 01:16
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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It comes from old English "Shake the bag "
That is true, however hardly anybody is aware of the etymology of the word "seckle". Thus it is used for both genders although the thought of it is actually quite funny.


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Of course as a parent as well as a car driver, I'm aware how the kids are taught, so when I see a child waiting I know that I must completely stop. But other drivers aren't. To be honest I'm a bit annoyed that there isn't more publicity about such things because it's confusing for everyone - for kids when cars don't stop for them and for car drivers expecting them to cross and they don't. Maybe they should replace some of those posters telling people "beginning of school, look out for kids" with something a bit more specific about full-stopping at crossings when kids are waiting.
TV spots running at prime time are not enough publicity then, I suppose?
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  #23  
Old 06.09.2011, 03:35
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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To me, restricting laufen to run in Germany is plain wrong but that's not what you are actually doing, so no problem. Your pinch of salt is of course welcome, but speaking natively also French, I can tell you that I genuously think that I don't make that difference as a concept at all: in German, not the speed is relevant but the verb of action vs verb of mouvement.
In sports, athletic walking is das Walking, cross country sky is neither run nor walk but still Langlauf. To my German head, the word laufen just doesn't fit run/walk categorizations. My French head however understands you perfectly and even agree with the appropriateness of your questioning.
"Das Walking" is a fairly new example of Denglish. A real athletic walker is still officially called "ein Geher" In sports (sorry, you brought it up), there is a distinction between "Gehen", where always at least one foot must have contact to the ground, whereas "Laufen" comprises a "Flugphase," where both feet are off the ground.

Since the advent of "Walking," "Nordic Walking" etc., it seems that there is a tendency to count "das Gehen" as an extension of "Laufsport," but that was not the case before.

The slogan, "Warte, luege, lose, laufe" is older than the Alps. Since we are talking about the correct way of crossing a street on foot, the meaning is very clear here. That's what I was focusing on.
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Old 06.09.2011, 09:18
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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I agree, but cum grano salis. For instance, in Standard German, "Lauf!" mainly means "Run!" In Swiss German it doesn't. Here you'd have to say (or yell), "Renn!" or, even more vernacular, "Seckle!" Folks, please don't ask me to explain the origin of this one.
Round here they say "Spring!" meaning run. For ages I thought they must be doing a lot of jumping at nursery as it was one of the first words my son came home with.
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  #25  
Old 06.09.2011, 09:42
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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Round here they say "Spring!" meaning run. For ages I thought they must be doing a lot of jumping at nursery as it was one of the first words my son came home with.
Correct, that's another way to put it, and a very frequent one to boot.
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  #26  
Old 06.09.2011, 15:59
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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The slogan, "Warte, luege, lose, laufe" is older than the Alps. Since we are talking about the correct way of crossing a street on foot, the meaning is very clear here. That's what I was focusing on.
Absolutely, I just added a little of lexicology on top of the topic (or on the side). Sorry for the disturbance.
So the sportspeople are called Geher? Fine by me, I discovered their existance only recently under the Denglish name. But the distinction you make gehen/laufen with earth contact and so on fits French/English better than German language use.
My only real concern: please do not let people in Switzerland think that laufen is used so differently in Germany. If there is something special about gehen in CH, it's the generic meaning where Germans would say fahren. I even heard "I gehe nach Amerika". Funny and interesting.

P.S. I am NOT trying to correct anybody, I am thinking loud in your presence.
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  #27  
Old 06.09.2011, 19:35
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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Absolutely, I just added a little of lexicology on top of the topic (or on the side). Sorry for the disturbance.
So the sportspeople are called Geher? Fine by me, I discovered their existance only recently under the Denglish name. But the distinction you make gehen/laufen with earth contact and so on fits French/English better than German language use.
My only real concern: please do not let people in Switzerland think that laufen is used so differently in Germany. If there is something special about gehen in CH, it's the generic meaning where Germans would say fahren. I even heard "I gehe nach Amerika". Funny and interesting.

P.S. I am NOT trying to correct anybody, I am thinking loud in your presence.
"Ich gehe nach Amerika" maybe funny for a German ,"Ich fahre nach Amerika " I want to see how you do that It is very ease for me If I go to the USA
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Old 06.09.2011, 21:39
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

Ich bin nach Kanada geflogen. Aber nach New York fährt auch die Queen Mary, oder?

Explanation for the non-German speakers: Germany's Germans feel a strong need to inform each other about how they travelled by choosing the adequat verb (fly, ride, walk...) whereas Switzerland's German speakers have a very happy life with using a generic gehen (to go). In a Germany's German's mind, if you say laufen, you make a point saying that you go somewhere walking: Fahren wir mit der U-Bahn? Nein, ich laufe lieber. (Do we take the tube? No, I prefer to walk). It takes a very clear context to have laufen meaning to run. The verb rennen pups up regularly too if need be.

In other words, I don't mind people understanding "running" in the above sentence in Hochdeutsch, but to me, it's walking even by northern German standards. Same in Dutch with lopen, btw.Usually Swiss German and Dutch (incl. northern platt) are the conservative ones and southern Germans the ones that transformed meanings the most. Just a general statement.
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  #29  
Old 06.09.2011, 21:47
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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My only real concern: please do not let people in Switzerland think that laufen is used so differently in Germany. If there is something special about gehen in CH, it's the generic meaning where Germans would say fahren. I even heard "I gehe nach Amerika". Funny and interesting.
Well, as you know, I am Swiss, but I don't think that's the only reason why I have no problem with "Ich gehe nach Amerika." Where are our native Germans? I think, "Nach dem Krieg ging er nach Amerika" is perfectly fine in its generic sense also in German German, i.e. without stating the means of transportation and the duration of the stay. If he swam, most likely you mention that, and if it was for a longer period of time, you may say, "Nach dem Krieg zog er nach Amerika."

On the other hand, you'd never say, "Sie lief die Treppe hoch" without clearly meaning she was running, not walking. In Swiss German, "Sie isch d'Schtäge-n-uuf glaufe" can mean walking or running, but mainly walking.

What I mean by this is, the differences between Swiss German and Standard German often are a bit subtler than they appear at first and maybe even second glance.

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In a Germany's German's mind, if you say laufen, you make a point saying that you go somewhere walking: Fahren wir mit der U-Bahn? Nein, ich laufe lieber. (Do we take the tube? No, I prefer to walk). It takes a very clear context to have laufen meaning to run. The verb rennen pups up regularly too if need be.
Agreed, but you won't say, "Nein, ich laufe lieber zu Fuss." That may be OK in certain dialects, but it sounds funny in Standard German.
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Last edited by Captain Greybeard; 06.09.2011 at 21:58. Reason: Second quote added.
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  #30  
Old 06.09.2011, 23:57
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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On the other hand, you'd never say, "Sie lief die Treppe hoch" without clearly meaning she was running, not walking.
I actually challenge that: it may not be the case everywhere in Germany. In my northern German, it's not that clear at all. Duden says that laufen=gehen is umgangsprachlich. Maybe my feeling is a regional thing and "dictionnary-German" says laufen must be faster than gehen. I am surprised myself, thanks to this discussion, how reluctant I am by language instinct to go down that road. Sorry.
In my childhood, the grown up said "Eerst kieken, denn laufen" (wrong spelling is trying to give an idea of the local prononciation). To me, it was walking, and it will never be otherwise. And that's a good 800 km north of Swiss border.
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  #31  
Old 07.09.2011, 00:31
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

"Laufen" Last das Bier Laufen
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  #32  
Old 07.09.2011, 02:23
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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I actually challenge that: it may not be the case everywhere in Germany. In my northern German, it's not that clear at all. Duden says that laufen=gehen is umgangsprachlich. Maybe my feeling is a regional thing and "dictionnary-German" says laufen must be faster than gehen. I am surprised myself, thanks to this discussion, how reluctant I am by language instinct to go down that road. Sorry.
In my childhood, the grown up said "Eerst kieken, denn laufen" (wrong spelling is trying to give an idea of the local prononciation). To me, it was walking, and it will never be otherwise. And that's a good 800 km north of Swiss border.
Actually we seem to agree, we just sometimes talk about slightly different things. In the entire course of this discussion, I've always been comparing Swiss German with Standard German (just calm down, OK?), fully aware of the differences of usage between various parts of Germany, which, however, are not covered by Standard German.

When Duden says something is umgangssprachlich, that means it is not real Standard German. You wouldn't use it, say, in a serious newspaper or as a TV anchor except in a deliberately dialectal context.

What some of our dear EFers learn in German classes is meant to be Standard German, and that's why I pointed out the oftentimes different meaning of "laufen" in Swiss German and Standard German. They learn neither Bayerisch nor Kölsch.

There are acceptable exceptions even in fairly Standard German, though, such as "laufen lernen," which you correctly mentioned already. German is full of exceptions, by far not as much as English, but it is.
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  #33  
Old 07.09.2011, 02:25
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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"Laufen" Last das Bier Laufen
Yeah, and at the end of the party you stand at one of those urinals with the logo "Laufen" at the upper left corner, and you think, actually it ought to read, "Laufen lassen."
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  #34  
Old 07.09.2011, 03:27
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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"Ich gehe nach Amerika" maybe funny for a German ,"Ich fahre nach Amerika " I want to see how you do that It is very ease for me If I go to the USA
In my opinion "gehen" is the verb used to express that you moved from A to B without indicating they way you moved. It depends on context whether it means specifically walking or general motion.

"Gehen's" definition according to Duden
(www.duden.de)
Quote:
  1. sich in aufrechter Haltung auf den Füßen schrittweise fortbewegen
  2. eine bestimmte Strecke gehend zurücklegen
  3. in bestimmter Weise zu begehen sein
    1. sich [mit bestimmter Absicht] irgendwohin begeben
    2. regelmäßig besuchen
    3. in einem bestimmten Bereich [beruflich] tätig werden
    4. (landschaftlich) als etwas [zu] arbeiten [beginnen]
  4. (umgangssprachlich) sich in bestimmter Weise kleiden
    1. einen Ort verlassen; weggehen
    2. seinen bisherigen Arbeitsplatz aufgeben; aus dem Amt, Dienst ausscheiden
    1. (umgangssprachlich) sich an etwas zu schaffen machen
    2. (umgangssprachlich) sich unerlaubt von einer Sache etwas nehmen
  5. (umgangssprachlich) mit jemandem ein Freundschafts- oder Liebesverhältnis haben [und sich in der Öffentlichkeit mit ihm zeigen]
    1. in bestimmter Weise in Bewegung sein
    2. aufgehen
    1. sich machen lassen; möglich sein
    2. (umgangssprachlich) einigermaßen akzeptabel sein, gerade noch angehen
    1. sich in bestimmter Weise entwickeln; in bestimmter Weise verlaufen
    2. in bestimmter Weise zu handhaben, zu machen, durchzuführen sein
  6. absetzbar, verkäuflich sein; gewünscht werden
    1. in etwas Raum finden
    2. (von Zahlen, Maßen) in etwas enthalten sein
    3. in etwas aufgeteilt werden
    1. sich bis zu einem bestimmten Punkt erstrecken, ausdehnen
    2. eine bestimmte Richtung haben, einschlagen; in einer bestimmten Richtung verlaufen
    3. auf etwas, jemanden abzielen, gerichtet sein
    4. sich einem bestimmten Zustand, Zeitpunkt o. Ä. nähern
    5. sich nach jemandem, etwas richten; jemanden, etwas als Maßstab nehmen
    1. sich in einer bestimmten Verfassung, Lage befinden
    2. sich um etwas handeln
1 to stepwise move oneself on one's feet in upright posture
[...]
4a to betake oneself somewhere [with decided (?) intention]
[...]

The definition of laufen:
Quote:
    1. sich in aufrechter Haltung auf den Füßen in schnellerem Tempo so fortbewegen, dass sich jeweils schrittweise für einen kurzen Augenblick beide Sohlen vom Boden lösen
    2. (umgangssprachlich) gehen
    3. zu Fuß gehen
    4. die Fähigkeit haben, sich auf den Beinen gehend fortzubewegen
    5. beim Laufen an, gegen etwas geraten, stoßen
    6. (von bestimmten Tieren) sich [schnell, flink] fortbewegen
  1. eine bestimmte Strecke gehend zurücklegen
    1. sich durch Laufen in einen bestimmten Zustand versetzen
    2. durch Laufen etwas, einen bestimmten Körperteil in einen bestimmten Zustand versetzen
    3. [unter bestimmten Umständen] in bestimmter Weise gehen können
  2. (umgangssprachlich; meist leicht abwertend) sich ständig [aus Gewohnheit] irgendwohin begeben
    1. an einem Laufwettbewerb, Rennen teilnehmen
    2. in einem sportlichen Wettbewerb, Rennen als Läufer eine bestimmte Zeit erzielen, erreichen
    3. in einem sportlichen Wettbewerb eine bestimmte Strecke zurücklegen
    4. sich unter bestimmten Umständen, in bestimmter Weise als Läufer betätigen
    1. die Fähigkeit haben, sich mit einem an den Füßen befestigten Sportgerät fortzubewegen
    2. sich auf einem an den Füßen befestigten Sportgerät fortbewegen
    1. in Gang, in Betrieb sein
    2. sich [gleichmäßig, gleitend] durch, über, um etwas bewegen
  3. (gelegentlich Fachsprache) fahren
    1. fließen
    2. Wasser, Flüssigkeit austreten, ausfließen lassen
  4. sich in bestimmter Richtung erstrecken; in bestimmter Richtung verlaufen
    1. [in bestimmter Weise] vor sich gehen, vonstattengehen, verlaufen
    2. eingeleitet, aber nicht abgeschlossen oder entschieden sein
  5. Gültigkeit haben; wirksam sein
  6. in einer Kartei o. Ä. geführt, registriert, festgehalten sein
  7. programmgemäß vorgeführt, dargeboten, ausgestrahlt werden
  8. (umgangssprachlich) sich günstig entwickeln
1.1 to move oneself in upright posture on ones feet at a fast pace, such that both feet lose receptively stepwise contact to the ground for a short moment
1.2 (coloquial) walk
1.3 travel on foot
[..]
2. to travel a certain distance walking
[...]

Definition #1.3 and #2 are not marked as colloquial or regional and thus should be fine to use in Standard German. Definition #1.2 however is marked as colloquial.
I think that based on these contradictions (ecpecially #1.2 and #2) one can assume, that there is no consensus about the meanings of laufen
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  #35  
Old 07.09.2011, 19:28
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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When Duden says something is umgangssprachlich, that means it is not real Standard German. .
We do agree, actually, and 1.3 and 1.4 of the Duden definitions are on my side. The question is how strongly normative we take the one or the other reference when our own language use does not match perfectly the official German learning book. To you, it's easier: you can categorize it into the two boxes of your Swiss diglossia. It's harder for norther Germans, as we kind of take our German for the norm, even if it may sometimes be couloured by platt. Funny is that in that case, platt and Swiss German seem to agree. Maybe I just underestimate the influence of low German there. Grand mother would be proud of that.
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Old 07.09.2011, 23:35
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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The traffic policeman came to my son's Kindergarten this morning - seems to have made a good impression - he had a gun!!
My son has been given a book with the phrase Warte-luege-lose-laufe in it - relating to crossing the road. I don't understand 'lose'? Can anyone help me?
Thanks
"luege-lose-laufe" means "look-out/listen/go" and the "o" in lose is a very short vowel
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  #37  
Old 07.09.2011, 23:38
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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A wonderful example of how the Swiss and Germans are separated by their common language. "Los!" means "Go!", both in Swiss German and in Standard German, but "lose" (different pronunciation of the "o"!) in Swiss German means "listen." "Laufe" in Swiss German means "to go" or "to walk," whereas in Standard German "laufen" means "to run." So, in Swiss German, the kids are not told to run across the street, as one might conclude after looking things up in a dictionary.

So yes, it is, "Wait, look, listen, walk" (preferably while the crossing is free, of course).

By the way, just to make things a bit more confusing, "lose" in Standard German means "loose"; "los" in Swiss German can have the same meaning, depending on the context. Now, if you think this is complicated, just look up what German translations a big dictionary has to offer for the English word "slip." Mine lists 28 possible versions.
Well, I mean, in CH-German, there of course is a gigantic difference between "lose" (losä) and "achtung färtig LOS"
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Old 07.09.2011, 23:42
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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If I may just butt in... About the word "luege", whenever I am in a shop in Zurich, a shop assistant approaches me, asks something in Swiss German which contains the word "helfen" (possibly), to which I answer "Nein, danke". She then will always go on to say something containing the word "luege", which, as I infer from the context, might mean: "You are just looking then".
What is the Swiss German phrase? I think I've heard it a hundred times already, but still can't repeat it...
- wännd Si ä chli luege ?
- Si chönd scho a chli umeluege ?
- eifach ä chli luege .... scho guät ... wänn Si öppis münd wüsse nur mälde
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Old 08.09.2011, 02:07
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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- wännd Si ä chli luege ? Do you want to look around?
- Si chönd scho a chli umeluege ? Please feel free to look around.
- eifach ä chli luege .... scho guät ... wänn Si öppis münd wüsse nur mälde Just browsing .... That's OK .... If you need assistance, please just ask.
Filler to reach the required length.
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Old 08.09.2011, 10:58
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Re: Warte-luege-lose-laufe

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Maybe they should replace some of those posters telling people "beginning of school, look out for kids" with something a bit more specific about full-stopping at crossings when kids are waiting.
If I remember correctly, here in Tessin those posters explicitly tell drivers to fully stop the car for children.

Also, I found this online, about Kanton Graubünden. One interesting thing that it mentions is that drivers always must stop completely if children are trying to cross or are already crossing. ("Gli automobilisti devono fermarsi completamente davanti alle strisce pedonali, se dei bambini sono in procinto di attraversare la strada o la stanno già attraversando").
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