Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Language corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10.10.2011, 15:31
Ittigen
 
Posts: n/a
swiss or Swiss?

When writing English correctly, which is correct in which context, what are the rules please?

For example, swiss chard, swiss roll, swiss cheeses, or is it a Swiss city, a Swiss train, a Swiss newspaper?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10.10.2011, 15:32
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,491
Groaned at 655 Times in 417 Posts
Thanked 16,388 Times in 6,379 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
When writing English correctly, which is correct in which context, what are the rules please?

For example, swiss chard, swiss roll, swiss cheeses, or is it a Swiss city, a Swiss train, a Swiss newspaper?
..capital S...why the confusion all of the sudden?
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 10.10.2011, 15:49
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Use a capital initial when usage favours it, and when connection with the proper name is still felt to be alive: "Many Swiss cheeses are known throughout the world", "the Swiss army takes Sunday off", "ignoring our advice, he married a Swiss woman."

Use a lower-case initial when connection with the proper name is remote or conventional: "We made a swiss roll, which was nice", "the salad consisted mainly of swiss chard".

R. Burchfield, the New Fowler's Modern English Usage.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 10.10.2011, 15:53
grumpygit's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: geneva
Posts: 1,476
Groaned at 29 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 1,508 Times in 695 Posts
grumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
When writing English correctly, which is correct in which context, what are the rules please?

For example, swiss chard, swiss roll, swiss cheeses, or is it a Swiss city, a Swiss train, a Swiss newspaper?

Surely a swiss roll is actually an English creation and therefore it shouldn`t benefit from a capital S as it doesn`t actually exist in Swiss or should that be Switzerland Im all confuscified
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10.10.2011, 15:56
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,491
Groaned at 655 Times in 417 Posts
Thanked 16,388 Times in 6,379 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
Use a capital initial when usage favours it, and when connection with the proper name is still felt to be alive: "Many Swiss cheeses are known throughout the world", "the Swiss army takes Sunday off", "ignoring our advice, he married a Swiss woman."

Use a lower-case initial when connection with the proper name is remote or conventional: "We made a swiss roll, which was nice", "the salad consisted mainly of swiss chard".

R. Burchfield, the New Fowler's Modern English Usage.
I would disagree. Regardless, whether the meaning of the word has any connection to Switzerland. Swiss is still the adjective of Switzerland and therefore, it is capitalized.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:02
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Neither, it's Switzerland
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:03
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,415
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 10,952 Times in 3,253 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
I would disagree. Regardless, whether the meaning of the word has any connection to Switzerland. Swiss is still the adjective of Switzerland and therefore, it is capitalized.
British English though. Innit.


(Like you, I'd capitalize Swiss roll, Swiss chard, all of them. The only one I wouldn't capitalize is "dotted swiss", a kind of cotton fabric.)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MathNut for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:04
Captain Greybeard's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sarganserland / NW Lower Penin
Posts: 3,516
Groaned at 43 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 7,410 Times in 2,314 Posts
Captain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

And then there is my (linguistic) favorite, the Swiss steak made in the USA. It's unknown in Switzerland, and since some encyclopedias seem to have realized that, they now say the term comes from "swissing the meat" by rolling or pounding it. However, I've yet to find a dictionary that mentions a verb "to swiss v./t." Currently, there are just five Google hits for "to swiss a steak" (quotation marks included), and I suspect they all got their wisdom from Wikipedia.

I'll gladly change my mind if someone out there knows somebody who swisses their meat.
__________________

"This is AMAZING! I have the exact amount of money Joe Biden has cost us playing golf in my sweatpants pocket!" Kona Lowell

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:06
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
I'll gladly change my mind if someone out there knows somebody who swisses their meat.
I'd rather not say, if it's all the same to you
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:10
grumpygit's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: geneva
Posts: 1,476
Groaned at 29 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 1,508 Times in 695 Posts
grumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
And then there is my (linguistic) favorite, the Swiss steak made in the USA. It's unknown in Switzerland, and since some encyclopedias seem to have realized that, they now say the term comes from "swissing the meat" by rolling or pounding it. However, I've yet to find a dictionary that mentions a verb "to swiss v./t." Currently, there are just five Google hits for "to swiss a steak" (quotation marks included), and I suspect they all got their wisdom from Wikipedia.

I'll gladly change my mind if someone out there knows somebody who swisses their meat.
Sounds bloody painful I must say
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
I've yet to find a dictionary that mentions a verb "to swiss v./t."
Swissing: The calendering of bleached cotton by passing it between pairs of rollers after damping.

(OED)

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:20
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,191
Groaned at 11 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,781 Times in 704 Posts
ceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
Swissing: The calendering of bleached cotton by passing it between pairs of rollers after damping.

(OED)

That process was to soften the cotton so I suppose the same could be said for 'swissing' a steak.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ceppych for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:21
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
And then there is my (linguistic) favorite, the Swiss steak made in the USA.
we have these in Mexico:




That's right sports fans... swiss enchiladas
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10.10.2011, 16:26
Captain Greybeard's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sarganserland / NW Lower Penin
Posts: 3,516
Groaned at 43 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 7,410 Times in 2,314 Posts
Captain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
Sounds bloody painful I must say
I see you took the bait. That's why I added the "".
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10.10.2011, 17:22
Ittigen
 
Posts: n/a
Re: swiss or Swiss?

The answers are not all black & white...

http://www.englishforums.com/English...dvqrz/post.htm

Question:

The AP and New York Times style books do not capitalize "brussels" in sprouts, but what about Swiss chard? With careful chefs deleting spinach as an ingredient from their menus, this question is, well, cropping up. Capitalizing the Swiss in chard feels right to me, but I wonder what the strict grammarians say.

Answer:
If you look the vegetables up in the ONE LOOK DICTIONARY SEARCH http://www.onelook.com/ you'll see that almost all dictionaries capitalize Swiss chard, while about half of them capitalize Brussels sprout. Both are obviously proper names and deserving of a capital S and B, respectively. I suggest that the reason for the anomaly may be that the sprout entered the language about 300 years before the chard-- time enough for it to become a common noun among the hoi polloi. If there is a more definitive solution to the conundrum, I am unaware of it.

General (11 matching dictionaries)
Swiss Roll, Swiss roll (metamaterial): Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia [home, info]
Swiss roll: Vocabulary.com [home, info]
Swiss roll: Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary [home, info]
Swiss roll: Rhymezone [home, info]

swiss roll: Compact Oxford English Dictionary [home, info]
swiss roll: Dictionary.com [home, info]
swiss roll: Free Dictionary [home, info]
swiss roll: Mnemonic Dictionary [home, info]
swiss roll: LookWAYup Translating Dictionary/Thesaurus [home, info]
swiss roll: Dictionary/thesaurus [home, info]

General (20 matching dictionaries)
Swiss Chard: Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia [home, info]
Swiss chard: American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language [home, info]
Swiss chard: Rhymezone [home, info]
Swiss chard: Vocabulary.com [home, info]
Swiss chard: LookWAYup Translating Dictionary/Thesaurus [home, info]
Swiss chard: Dictionary/thesaurus [home, info]
Swiss chard: Macmillan Dictionary [home, info]
Swiss chard: Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th Edition [home, info]
Swiss chard: Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary [home, info]
Swiss chard: InfoVisual Visual Dictionary [home, info]
Swiss chard: Wiktionary [home, info]
Swiss chard: The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus [home, info]
Swiss chard: Infoplease Dictionary [home, info]

swiss chard: Dictionary.com [home, info]
swiss chard: Free Dictionary [home, info]
swiss chard: Mnemonic Dictionary [home, info]
swiss chard: WordNet 1.7 Vocabulary Helper [home, info]
swiss chard: Compact Oxford English Dictionary [home, info]

General (15 matching dictionaries)
Brussels Sprouts: Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: Dictionary/thesaurus [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: Wordnik [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: Wiktionary [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus [home, info]
Brussels sprouts, brussels sprouts: Dictionary.com [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: Ultra Lingua English Dictionary [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: Urban Dictionary [home, info]
Brussels sprouts: Medical dictionary [home, info]

brussels sprouts: Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary [home, info]
brussels sprouts: Rhymezone [home, info]
brussels sprouts: Free Dictionary [home, info]
brussels sprouts: Mnemonic Dictionary [home, info]
brussels sprouts: WordNet 1.7 Vocabulary Helper [home, info]
brussels sprouts: LookWAYup Translating Dictionary/Thesaurus [home, info]
brussels sprouts: Vocabulary.com [home, info]
brussels sprouts: Linda's Culinary Dictionary [home, info]
brussels sprouts: Encyclopedia [home, info]
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 10.10.2011, 17:55
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 1,191
Groaned at 11 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,781 Times in 704 Posts
ceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond reputeceppych has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Enuff
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ceppych for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 10.10.2011, 17:59
quark's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Aargh-Ow!
Posts: 1,321
Groaned at 12 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 1,838 Times in 756 Posts
quark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
When writing English correctly, which is correct in which context, what are the rules please?

For example, swiss chard, swiss roll, swiss cheeses, or is it a Swiss city, a Swiss train, a Swiss newspaper?
As a rule of thumb to check whether the "Swiss" connection is "remote" enough to take a small s under Fowler's rule, try prefixing it with another nationality.

Does it make sense to have British swiss roll? Yes, so small s.
Does it make sense to have French swiss chard? Yes, so small s.
Does it make sense to have a Mongolian Swiss city? No, so capital S.

This test tells you whether the word Swiss acts as a true adjective, or just as the first word of a Wikipedia reference-linkcompound noun.

Of course, it you have to take the case of compound adjectives separately - Locarno could be described as an Italian Swiss city (or Italian-Swiss, or probably best of all, Swiss-Italian).

I doubt the vast majority of English speakers notice or care though, as it very rarely makes any difference to the meaning of the sentence either way.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank quark for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 10.10.2011, 18:00
Sagitta's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 706
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 1,174 Times in 489 Posts
Sagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

And I thought it was me who carried the torch for linguistic nerds.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Sagitta for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 30.10.2011, 18:34
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,971
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swiss or Swiss?

Quote:
View Post
British English though. Innit.


(Like you, I'd capitalize Swiss roll, Swiss chard, all of them. The only one I wouldn't capitalize is "dotted swiss", a kind of cotton fabric.)
Interesting. Why wouldn't you capitalize Swiss dot? It's the only one of those three that actually has real connection to Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 30.10.2011, 18:37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: swiss or Swiss?

DB, you should be ashamed -

made a Swiss roll, not very nice is it
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
english grammar




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Has EF made you more Swiss than the Swiss? IronAngle General off-topic 7 17.08.2011 17:35
Immigration/Swiss authorities will remove swiss Bank foreign employees HAT Permits/visas/government 42 21.02.2011 15:08
Swiss men weak, Swiss women strong, what's your take? flavio Family matters/health 129 09.02.2011 12:45
Swiss citizenship for babies born to Non Swiss Nationals? AlainaS Family matters/health 31 25.06.2009 23:41
Swiss German, Swiss Italian, Swiss French? yuhu Language corner 34 05.05.2009 13:48


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0