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  #21  
Old 03.11.2011, 17:27
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Even much cuter in Schaffhauser dialect: "Da da da taar!" Same in some parts of Thurgau.

According to new (= reformed) orthography, it's "dass" also in German German (in Swiss German standard it was already since the 1930's). And "Schifffahrt" with three f's is only logical and a simplification compared to the old system of "Pressspan" with three s's but "Pressack" with two, althoug it is a composite of "Press-" and "Sack).

I don't like the reformed orthography, but there are things that are substantially simpler and clearer now.
It was Preßsack in ye olde German so by the "newfangled" logic it has now three eses and Schiffahrt only had two eff´s except if you had to split it then it was: "Schiff-
fahrt"
Don´t know but for me it has complicated things.
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Old 03.11.2011, 19:47
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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That would be Straßenbahn, Goggel, in the south, or Goldbroiler, way, way, east, Reisebus works just fine. Gesellschaftswagen is a coach from the Bundesbahn.
OK, ok, ok. It vas a tshoke, ja?
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  #23  
Old 03.11.2011, 20:30
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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It was Preßsack in ye olde German so by the "newfangled" logic it has now three eses and Schiffahrt only had two eff´s except if you had to split it then it was: "Schiff-
fahrt"
Don´t know but for me it has complicated things.
Sorry, I can't quite see your problem. Formerly, it was Presse and Sack, but Preßsack, now it's Presse and Sack and Presssack. Formerly, it was Schiff and Fahrt but Schiffahrt, now it's Schiff and Fahrt and Schifffahrt. Couldn't get much simpler and clearer. Or am I getting something wrong?
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Old 03.11.2011, 22:20
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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OK, ok, ok. It vas a tshoke, ja?
Ah I zee, yoo gzchoke heff made
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  #25  
Old 03.11.2011, 22:22
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Sorry, I can't quite see your problem. Formerly, it was Presse and Sack, but Preßsack, now it's Presse and Sack and Presssack. Formerly, it was Schiff and Fahrt but Schiffahrt, now it's Schiff and Fahrt and Schifffahrt. Couldn't get much simpler and clearer. Or am I getting something wrong?
Nit really but for me it is like stroking a cat the wrong way, it just wants to make me BRRRR
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Old 03.11.2011, 23:53
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Nit really but for me it is like stroking a cat the wrong way, it just wants to make me BRRRR
Why not ? I mean, Schifffahrt is logical. And so you can easily write about those Zürichseedampfschifffahrtgesellschaftskapitäne
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Old 04.11.2011, 09:35
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Why not ? I mean, Schifffahrt is logical. And so you can easily write about those Zürichseedampfschifffahrtgesellschaftskapitäne
That would be: Donaudampfschifffahrtgesellschaftskapitäne
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Old 04.11.2011, 09:50
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

or another sentence: "Ist das das Kleid, das du gestern anziehen wolltest?"
correct - "das" here always as a pronoun and not as a conjunction.
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Old 04.11.2011, 10:04
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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I would use "dass" in that case as well. Who "corrected" it?
Apparently it's a point of contention with native speakers as well.
Das = article (the)
Dass = preposition (that)

We have these things in English, too. Like compound-plural words, that people like to mess up.
e.g. Mothers-in-law versus mother-in-laws
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Old 04.11.2011, 10:19
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Arrrgh! I just can not get used to this bloody reformed German. it´s daß not dass, or Gruß not Gruss, außen not aussen, same with Schifffahrt, three eff´s I ask you, what genius came up with that one.
However I do get to freak out my Spellchecker so it´s not all bad.
In Germany the ß still exists in words with a long vowel sound like Straße, only in the short vowel sound words like Fass the ß was changed to a double s, whereas in Switzerland there is no ß in use at all, which I find quite amusing sometimes:

Man sollte nicht in Massen, sondern in Massen trinken. (you shouldn't drink excessively but only to a moderate extent)

In Germany it reads:
Man sollte nicht in Massen, sondern in Maßen trinken. (gets the message across a bit clearer, doesn't it)

And for those of you who have been to the Oktoberfest compare this:
ein Maß Bier - ein Mass Bier
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Old 04.11.2011, 10:26
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Apparently it's a point of contention with native speakers as well.
Das = article (the)
Dass = preposition (that)

We have these things in English, too. Like compound-plural words, that people like to mess up.
e.g. Mothers-in-law versus mother-in-laws
"das" is also used in a relative sentence:

Das Haus, das gestern abgebrannt ist,... (the house that burnt down yesterday)
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Old 04.11.2011, 10:31
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Mothers-in-law versus mother-in-laws
Or Evil Witch(es).
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  #33  
Old 04.11.2011, 10:34
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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or another sentence: "Ist das das Kleid, das du gestern anziehen wolltest?"
correct - "das" here always as a pronoun and not as a conjunction.
A clever mixture of articles, relative and demonstrative pronouns forming an interesting accumulation of homonyms: "Die, die die, die die Dietriche erfunden haben, verdammen, tun unrecht" (those who curse those who invented picklocks do them wrong).

A whole lot of conjunctions, but not all of them serving their regular function: A butcher saying to the sign painter, "Die Abstände zwischen 'Fleisch' und 'und' und 'und' und 'Würste' sollten gleich sein (1)" (The spaces between 'Meat' and 'And' and 'And' and 'Sausages' ought to be equal).

Reply: "Im Beispiel (1) sind die Abstände zwischen Fleisch und 'und' und 'und' und 'und' und 'und' und 'und' und 'und' und 'un'd und 'und' und 'und' und 'und' und Wurst gleich gross" (In example (1) the spaces beween 'Meat' and 'and' and 'and' and 'And' and 'And' and 'and' and 'and' and 'And' and 'And' and 'and' and 'and' and 'Sausages' are equal).
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Last edited by Captain Greybeard; 04.11.2011 at 12:01. Reason: Sometimes I even blend English word into German sentences...
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  #34  
Old 04.11.2011, 10:39
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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In Germany the ß still exists in words with a long vowel sound like Straße, only in the short vowel sound words like Fass the ß was changed to a double s, whereas in Switzerland there is no ß in use at all, which I find quite amusing sometimes:

Man sollte nicht in Massen, sondern in Massen trinken. (you shouldn't drink excessively but only to a moderate extent)

In Germany it reads:
Man sollte nicht in Massen, sondern in Maßen trinken. (gets the message across a bit clearer, doesn't it)

And for those of you who have been to the Oktoberfest compare this:
ein Maß Bier - ein Mass Bier
Agree to most, but in Bavaria and Svabia, a Mass Bier is female, i.e. in Bavarian Standard German (if there is anything like this) it's "eine Mass Bier."
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  #35  
Old 04.11.2011, 11:05
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Agree to most, but in Bavaria and Svabia, a Mass Bier is female, i.e. in Bavarian Standard German (if there is anything like this) it's "eine Mass Bier."
Then you get to the real wierd stuff where die Butter becomes der Butter, but that is a Swabian thing.
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Old 04.11.2011, 11:59
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Then you get to the real wierd stuff where die Butter becomes der Butter, but that is a Swabian thing.
Swiss German too.
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Old 04.11.2011, 12:08
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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Swiss German too.
I have looked that up Swiss German and the Swabian dialect belong to the same family the border being on the Swiss side the Röstigraben and the river Lech on the Swabian side, over the border (the river) it then goes into Bavarian, to the north up to a line just below Stuttgart and to the south, well where people start talking in Klingon, srangly Austrian belongs to a completly different dialect family.
There are some really facinating graphics to be found on the web mapping the Swiss-Swabian dialects.
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Old 04.11.2011, 13:56
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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I have looked that up Swiss German and the Swabian dialect belong to the same family the border being on the Swiss side the Röstigraben and the river Lech on the Swabian side, over the border (the river) it then goes into Bavarian, to the north up to a line just below Stuttgart and to the south, well where people start talking in Klingon, srangly Austrian belongs to a completly different dialect family.
There are some really facinating graphics to be found on the web mapping the Swiss-Swabian dialects.
Svabian is Low Alemannic, Swiss German is High Alemannic, with Basel as the only Low Alemannic exception in Switzerland, whereas the German speaking part of Valais, some areas of the Grisons, especially the Prättigau Valley, and some other neighboring areas speak Höchstalemannisch ("Highest Alemannic"). That's those folks nobody undestands on radio and TV.

Austrian is a variant of Bairisch, the other big one being Bavarian (=Bayerisch). Vorarlberg (the Austrian state next to Switzerland) has areas that speak High Alemannic, others speak Höchstalemannisch, and the northern part speaks mainly Bodensee-Alemannisch, which is closer to Swiss German than to Svabian. The little Samnaun Valley in the NE Grisons right on the Austrian border speaks a Bairisch dialect too.

I don't know the whereabaouts of the boundary line between "der Butter" und "die Butter." All I know is it's masculine in Switzerland, maybe not in Basel Stadt, but not quite sure there.

In Svabia etc., things are much more diluted than in Switzerland these days, because the influence of Standard German on the dialects is much stronger. There are growing circles that consider dialect as a matter for the proles, whereas in Switzerland no one would ever have the notion of speaking Standard German at the dining table.
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  #39  
Old 04.11.2011, 15:09
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

This is quite interesting:

However I disagree that dialect is being diluted, in the last years it has seen a rebirth after the Kahlschlag of the 60ies and 70ies.
Look where the border is, just as I said on the Lech, Augsburg speaks Schwäbish and Friedberg 5 kilometers to the east, Bavarian.
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Old 04.11.2011, 20:06
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Re: Explanation of a German grammar rule please

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This is quite interesting:

However I disagree that dialect is being diluted, in the last years it has seen a rebirth after the Kahlschlag of the 60ies and 70ies.
Look where the border is, just as I said on the Lech, Augsburg speaks Schwäbish and Friedberg 5 kilometers to the east, Bavarian.
I know where those borders are, and quite e few more that do not show in that map. There is no doubt that the border on the Lech River is a pretty pronounced (!) one, although there are equally pronounced borders even within the High Alemannic dialects here in Switzerland. In our little Heidiland region alone, within a radius of about 13 miles, there are at least six borders that divide dialect differences that each would need a distance of 700 miles or more in the USA. In many villages, you can easily tell the difference between people from the upper and the lower part of the village.

As for the dilution in Swabia (sorry about my mispelling in my previous post, I really should have known better), I based that statement on the observation that, among my Swabian friends, only very few speak real Swabian these days. They proudly speak with a strong Swabian accent and often use Swabian words, but their language is far closer to Standard German than to real Swabian, much more so than in Bavaria. There sure are attempts to reverse that, but I don't believe they will last for long.

Such tendencies to water dialects down are increasing also in Switzerland, but here they are frowned upon. You may hear "Pferd" instead of "Ross" or "liebe" instead of "gärn haa," but saying such makes you look like a moron or a streamlined iPhone kiddie. And politicians who read their Swiss German speeches from a Standard German text sheet often are the laughing stock of comedians. It just sounds so wrong, whereas a mixture of Swabian and Standard German will not raise many eyebrows.
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