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  #41  
Old 08.03.2012, 18:18
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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Oh, is that why you say "The United States is.." ?
Is not the name of the entire Country the "United States of America", where United States reffers to the short version of the SINGLE country?

same goes for the United Nations i guess... it's one body... Sometimes language is confusing... :P
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  #42  
Old 08.03.2012, 18:26
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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It's the same with singular and plural. In English words such as glasses or trousers are grammatically plurals although we consider the objects referred to as functionally singular under normal conditions.
Yeah, famous question: How come we say panties (plural) but bra (singular)?
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  #43  
Old 08.03.2012, 18:35
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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... Sometimes language is confusing... :P
Not language, just English...
Die Vereinigten Staaten sind - Les Etats-Unis sont - ils statis unids èn (ils statis units sun).
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  #44  
Old 09.03.2012, 01:30
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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Not language, just English...
Die Vereinigten Staaten sind - Les Etats-Unis sont - ils statis unids èn (ils statis units sun).
Re: the is/are debate, another famous old saying:

'The Civil War was fought over a point of grammar.'
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  #45  
Old 09.03.2012, 01:36
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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.. Sometimes language is confusing... :P
It's not, but our knowledge is fragmented, makes it illogical. It's super logical. History of language is exciting. Lines things up.

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Yeah, famous question: How come we say panties (plural) but bra (singular)?
Hm, I think it is because panties are little pants. Always in plural.

Bra is on a trunk. If boobies were limbs, bra would be bras.
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  #46  
Old 09.03.2012, 05:25
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Oh, is that why you say "The United States is.." ?
We have done this since our Civil War when Americans began thinking of themselves as one nation rather than a collection of 30-something mini-nations. If it were up to me, the U.S. government would make this official so that in other languages, this grammatically "incorrect" term is official in treaties and diplomatic dialogue with other nations.

There is one point of grammar in France which I think is serious and needs to be changed. In the United States and many other countries, women have the option to refer to themselves as "Ms." and not give out their marital status. In France, women have no choice in official documents but to refer to themselves as "madamoiselle" or "madame". Meanwhile, single and married men both are referred to as "monsieur."

This is just wrong. Arguing over whether groups of men and women should be masculine or feminine is minor. In the 21st Century a French woman's marital status should be her own business and not anybody else's. I approve of the suggestion that "madame" become the new "Ms." in French and refer to both single and married women.

Actually, I found out this has just changed in France, and by "just changed" I mean a couple of days ago. Desolé.

http://languagesoftheworld.info/soci...emoiselle.html

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If a woman were to become president of France, she would be addressed as Madame Le President. The should demonstarte clearly the grammatical gender is not sexual gender.
That is sending a message that grammatical rules are more important than people and should never ever change, no matter what? Why stop at "Le"? Why not call the first woman president of France, "Monsieur Le President"? Monsieur will agree with "Le President" so it must be correct!

When France finally overturns Salic Law and send a woman to serve in the Elysee Palace, I believe it is fitting and proper that in French she should be referred to as "Madame La President."

Last edited by MusicChick; 09.03.2012 at 16:08. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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  #47  
Old 09.03.2012, 08:40
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

Why not just make the whole language easier for billions of students of French and make it completely gender neutral except for the personal pronouns 'He' and 'She' and the possessive pronouns 'his' and 'her'. If I hear anything about it losing its 'romance' then, I'll know this is a lot of bs.
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  #48  
Old 09.03.2012, 09:04
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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Why not just make the whole language easier for billions of students of French.
Proceed. Send your ideas to France. Gook luck with it.
In the mean time, your have to learn Finnish remember? If gender is really that difficult, then you'll have to problems being fluent in Finnish in no time. Don't hesitate to post about your progress, I like to be entertained...


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When France finally overturns Salic Law and send a woman to serve in the Elysee Palace, I believe it is fitting and proper that in French she should be referred to as "Madame La President."
Madame la Présidente. You are the one who wants feminine endings, so put them in the words you claim need them. Otherwise, your example just ruins your argument. I take great care in your interest, so I felt a strong need to intervene (?spelling?) out of pure empathy and kindness to mankind, hm womenkind, hm peoplekind, hm humankind, hm kindofkind...
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  #49  
Old 09.03.2012, 10:22
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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That is sending a message that grammatical rules are more important than people and should never ever change, no matter what? Why stop at "Le"? Why not call the first woman president of France, "Monsieur Le President"? Monsieur will agree with "Le President" so it must be correct!
No, not at all. You are again confusing sex with gender.

As a function or role, the position of president does not have a sex but it does have a gender. Just as different parts of your body have different grammatical genders and those genders are not affected by the sex of the person they are attached to.

Furthermore, Monsieur/Madame is not an adjective. Therefore it doesn't need to agree with a noun. No more than we need to call Mr Obama the Presidents of the United States for reasons of number agreement.
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  #50  
Old 09.03.2012, 10:28
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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In the mean time, your have to learn Finnish remember? If gender is really that difficult, then you'll have to problems being fluent in Finnish in no time. Don't hesitate to post about your progress, I like to be entertained...
Isn't English Gender neutral? or Genderless... pronouns are all 'you' or 'the' or something like that... also english includes new words to make up for gender specific words, ie, Fireman, Firefighter, Stewardess, Flight Attendant...

Yet we sometimes intentionally gendify (is that even a word ) like ships are She's: "I'm givin' 'er all she's got cap'n!!"
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  #51  
Old 09.03.2012, 12:33
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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Isn't English Gender neutral? or Genderless... pronouns are all 'you' or 'the' or something like that... also english includes new words to make up for gender specific words, ie, Fireman, Firefighter, Stewardess, Flight Attendant...
I wonder why we speak of pole dancers rather than pole danceresses ... ???
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  #52  
Old 09.03.2012, 14:18
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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I think it's quite patriarchal, and I do think words matter. It's awkward that certain professions don't have a female form, even if females are in that role. I don't expect the language will change to be more inclusive though, at least not in my lifetime.
Contrast to English where the female form 'actrice' is rarely used; instead 'actor' is used.

And why 'chairperson' now rather than 'chairman' or 'chairwoman'
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  #53  
Old 09.03.2012, 14:29
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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I think it's quite patriarchal, and I do think words matter. It's awkward that certain professions don't have a female form, even if females are in that role. I don't expect the language will change to be more inclusive though, at least not in my lifetime.
There are also professions that don't have a male form.
For some reason people assume that a nurse is female, and hence we have the clumsy construct "male nurse". And we get people saying "my husband is a male nurse". Why is the specification male so necessary in that sentence? It'd be rather odd if her husband wasn't a male nurse.

And moving on to other professions. What is a male midwife? A midhusband? Or a midspouse?
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  #54  
Old 09.03.2012, 14:29
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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I wonder why we speak of pole dancers rather than pole danceresses ... ???
Because the term Dancer is gender neutral and refers to both Male and Female, like Person is also gender neutral, as is follower, Student, etc... There are words that are not masculine that address both genders?!?


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Contrast to English where the female form 'actrice' is rarely used; instead 'actor' is used.

And why 'chairperson' now rather than 'chairman' or 'chairwoman'
the official word is just Chair now, but if u refer to a certain Chairperson, than that's what you use.

And whats and Actrice??? Do you mean Actress?
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  #55  
Old 09.03.2012, 14:35
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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Because the term Dancer is gender neutral and refers to both Male and Female, like Person is also gender neutral
But you would still refer to the dancer as a she, not as an it. So the term is not really of neutral gender but more of dual gender.
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  #56  
Old 09.03.2012, 14:40
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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There is one point of grammar in France which I think is serious and needs to be changed. In the United States and many other countries, women have the option to refer to themselves as "Ms." and not give out their marital status. In France, women have no choice in official documents but to refer to themselves as "madamoiselle" or "madame". Meanwhile, single and married men both are referred to as "monsieur."

This is just wrong. Arguing over whether groups of men and women should be masculine or feminine is minor. In the 21st Century a French woman's marital status should be her own business and not anybody else's. I approve of the suggestion that "madame" become the new "Ms." in French and refer to both single and married women.

Actually, I found out this has just changed in France, and by "just changed" I mean a couple of days ago. Desolé.

http://languagesoftheworld.info/soci...emoiselle.html
Madame is used in France as soon as woman hits a certian age (c. 30?).

Personally I always found it strange, in NYT articles, that after talking about a woman's husband and kids the article still refers to Ms.! Come off it, if you have a husband, you are married, so why continue to use the Ms. title?
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Old 09.03.2012, 14:49
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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Personally I always found it strange, in NYT articles, that after talking about a woman's husband and kids the article still refers to Ms.! Come off it, if you have a husband, you are married, so why continue to use the Ms. title?
why not? There is no law requiring one to take the Mrs. title after marriage.
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Old 09.03.2012, 14:53
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And whats and Actrice??? Do you mean Actress?
Yes indeed, I meant actress; sorry, actrice it is in that opressive and unfair language French

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why not? There is no law requiring one to take the Mrs. title after marriage.
But after talking about the marital status, kids etc what is the point in obscuring martial status (what's to hide?)? I just don't get it. But then agian this could just be a question of US/UK usage/dialect.

Last edited by jrspet; 09.03.2012 at 15:20. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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  #59  
Old 09.03.2012, 17:59
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

Sorry I missed that point: Mademoiselle has been abandoned in official French papers last week !!!!!!
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  #60  
Old 10.03.2012, 00:55
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Re: 'French language (grammar ) is sexist' feminists say

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Madame la Présidente. You are the one who wants feminine endings, so put them in the words you claim need them. Otherwise, your example just ruins your argument. I take great care in your interest, so I felt a strong need to intervene (?spelling?) out of pure empathy and kindness to mankind, hm womenkind, hm peoplekind, hm humankind, hm kindofkind...
Thank you for correcting me. I should save my criticisms of the French language until I actually know it better. (I did not know about feminine endings in French, although Spanish should have given me warning.) But now that I do know, I think that should a woman ever be elected President of France, "Madame la Présidente" should be her proper title.
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