Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Language corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 27.10.2012, 18:13
TiMow's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fribourg
Posts: 9,295
Groaned at 237 Times in 154 Posts
Thanked 12,188 Times in 5,300 Posts
TiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Quote:
View Post
OK thats enought please lock this thread. conclusion: im gonna use der for any genders...
..... ee by gum, thou speaks propa Yorkshire.

Tis nought wit'genders, here lad. Women must muck in, same as t'us fellas.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at TiMow for this post:
  #82  
Old 27.10.2012, 19:54
stephen_NE's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Luzern
Posts: 1,489
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 1,577 Times in 748 Posts
stephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Quote:
View Post
german is like singing.....try to feel the language
Off topic... but I have been listening a lot to a piece of German classical music in which a tenor sings what I always thought was "die laute Schlagen", which I interpreted as something like "the loud thumps".

Then yesterday evening I saw a performance on TV with French subtitles, and it turns out that what the tenor really sings is "die Laute schlagen", translated by the subtitler as "plucking the lute".

Language can be fascinating
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank stephen_NE for this useful post:
  #83  
Old 27.10.2012, 19:59
Slaphead's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,223
Groaned at 34 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 9,408 Times in 2,870 Posts
Slaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond reputeSlaphead has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Quote:
View Post
Off topic... but I have been listening a lot to a piece of German classical music in which a tenor sings what I always thought was "die laute Schlagen", which I interpreted as something like "the loud thumps".

Then yesterday evening I saw a performance on TV with French subtitles, and it turns out that what the tenor really sings is "die Laute schlagen", translated by the subtitler as "plucking the lute".

Language can be fascinating
Context, context, and more context. A language is nothing without context.

Based on just that phrase I'd probably have made the same mistake as you
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Slaphead for this useful post:
  #84  
Old 27.10.2012, 20:10
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: CH
Posts: 1,038
Groaned at 244 Times in 117 Posts
Thanked 699 Times in 434 Posts
Bucentaure is considered a nuisanceBucentaure is considered a nuisanceBucentaure is considered a nuisance
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Quote:
View Post
OK thats enought please lock this thread. conclusion: im gonna use der for any genders...
If you really have to pick one article to use in all genders, numbers and cases,

leave the "r" away this time from the "der" and use "de".

It's not High German, and it's only one of the direct articles in Schwyzerdütsch,

however in lower and middle German (and I think Dutch, too) it's the only one in all genders and cases, which invaded also a fast-spoken maybe young German oral speech (in movies, docs ...), maybe kind of a "fake slang". So not completely wrong, imo, and in any case far better than "der" (which has a difficult pronounciation btw in High German, as it is not simply d+e+r but rather d+e+h plus maybe even a final short a, so not uvular and not alveolar at all).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Bucentaure for this useful post:
  #85  
Old 27.10.2012, 20:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Quote:
View Post
however in lower and middle German (and I think Dutch, too) it's the only one in all genders and cases.
Just because you talked about it:

- low German
de for masculine and feminine
dat for neutral
The only rest of declension is dativ/accusative masculine den.

- Dutch
de for masculine and feminine, die when stressed
het for neutral words, dat when stressed
no rest of declension in modern language, only genitive plural der in some formal expressions.

- middle German
three genders with either der, die, dat or der, die, das.
three cases in declensions, genitiv almost extinct, so n praxis it is only dative masculine den or dem, feminine der or de, plural den. Masculine accusative resists quite well evolution too.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #86  
Old 27.10.2012, 20:25
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: CH
Posts: 1,038
Groaned at 244 Times in 117 Posts
Thanked 699 Times in 434 Posts
Bucentaure is considered a nuisanceBucentaure is considered a nuisanceBucentaure is considered a nuisance
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Can be,

but as quite nobody speaks low German any more,

what in local (or even not so "local") accents is left is "de", afaik, only randomly "dat" or whatever.



Anyhow, probability of hitting a "correct" form (at least in oral speech) by using "de" is far higher than using "der" for all situations.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Bucentaure for this useful post:
  #87  
Old 27.10.2012, 20:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Quote:
View Post

but as quite nobody speaks low German any more,
.
Dat do ik. Bün ik nüms? (I do, am I nobody?)

It is really all right for learners who have bigger problems to deal with than correct declension and gender to skip this and concentrate on getting their message along. Really fine. Incorrect doesn't mean forbidden.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 27.10.2012, 20:50
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: CH
Posts: 1,038
Groaned at 244 Times in 117 Posts
Thanked 699 Times in 434 Posts
Bucentaure is considered a nuisanceBucentaure is considered a nuisanceBucentaure is considered a nuisance
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

Quote:
View Post
Dat do ik.
...
Düt un dat geiht nur oop Platt.


Besides I said "quite", I would say that "de" for everything is a choice. Not the best one, but not the worst, in both, study/implementation and probability hit of getting the right form.


What btw. I find a bit astonishing is that normally Iranians do know a very good Arabic. And in Arabic you have gender in grammar stuff plus cool things like the dual and also accusative suffix of the noun, if I remember well.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 27.10.2012, 21:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

I'd say to learners : do your best, there is a point where too much thinking hinders talking, so mistakes are normal. Some people will want to know how it works in order to work on it and get better at it, others will find their comfort zone good enough after their own stamdards, that's fine too. Some will eventually get it, nice for them.
Swiss younger generation tends to make some words neutral, and they often mix up endings -n and -m. A minority will write strong genitive endings correctly, they never use them in daily life.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 27.10.2012, 21:40
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: How to get rid of Der, Die Das????

+1 - Spot on Faltrad - great post and a sign of an excellent teacher.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to get rid of 5 Rappens??? e.kazemi Finance/banking/taxation 41 09.10.2012 09:52
How to get rid of washing machine lydi Housing in general 7 19.07.2011 14:23
how to get rid of syringes. Ouchboy Family matters/health 18 03.02.2011 10:52
how to get rid of a dead car in geneva? zyzurgy Transportation/driving 6 20.08.2009 15:26
how to get rid of cds/dvds ilovefood Other/general 5 28.10.2008 23:37


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0