Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Language corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:06
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 45
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Simon81 has no particular reputation at present
why use "sind" here?

Why we say
" Es sind 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom."
instead of "Es ist 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom." ?

Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:16
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 11,631
Groaned at 181 Times in 163 Posts
Thanked 18,199 Times in 7,675 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Probably for the same reason that we would say

There are 76 km to Rome ( between here and Rome actually sounds better IMO)
and not
There is 76 km to Rome

In English.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:21
lucy_who's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 643
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,002 Times in 384 Posts
lucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

In English, you'd normally say "it is 76 kilometres to Rome".
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lucy_who for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:25
Dechen01's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Luzern
Posts: 273
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 235 Times in 133 Posts
Dechen01 is considered knowledgeableDechen01 is considered knowledgeableDechen01 is considered knowledgeable
Re: why use "sind" here?

Because 76 km is more than 1 km - so it's plural.

es ist 1 km bis nach …
es sind 2+ km bis nach …
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Dechen01 for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:25
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,004
Groaned at 1,992 Times in 1,508 Posts
Thanked 34,453 Times in 16,385 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

The Italian also translates to 'there are'.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:28
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,780
Groaned at 329 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 10,781 Times in 3,751 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

And it's more than 76km to Rome while we're correcting stuff...
Reply With Quote
The following 12 users would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 04.01.2015, 19:51
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 3,755
Groaned at 153 Times in 103 Posts
Thanked 6,888 Times in 2,703 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Curiously, could you also say:

"Es gibt 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom?"

I'm trying to get a free German lesson here.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04.01.2015, 21:32
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
Why we say
" Es sind 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom."
instead of "Es ist 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom." ?

Thank you.

singular against plural
= es ist EIN Kilometer bis nach Rom
= es sind VIELE Kilometer bis nach Rom
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04.01.2015, 21:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 716
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 648 Times in 338 Posts
daffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputationdaffy99 has an excellent reputation
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
Why we say
" Es sind 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom."
instead of "Es ist 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom." ?

Thank you.
Try the native language[*]: 'sch hät 76 km uff Rom

That works in both singular and plural.
[*] Buyer beware - non-native speaker
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04.01.2015, 23:25
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Bern
Posts: 842
Groaned at 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 1,345 Times in 518 Posts
heckenhocker has a reputation beyond reputeheckenhocker has a reputation beyond reputeheckenhocker has a reputation beyond reputeheckenhocker has a reputation beyond reputeheckenhocker has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
" Es sind 76 Kilometer bis nach Rom."
so... now clear on es sind (not es ist, or es gibt). Thanks.

why "bis nach Rom"
why not bis (without nach)?

I'm used to bis & mit in dates (e.g. bis und mit Montag), and driving to a specific place (nach Basel), and passing a place on the journey ( A-xx bis Basel und weiter nach Somewhere-else)

Help
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04.01.2015, 23:47
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: CH
Posts: 1,047
Groaned at 244 Times in 117 Posts
Thanked 697 Times in 433 Posts
Bucentaure is considered unworthyBucentaure is considered unworthyBucentaure is considered unworthy
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
so... now clear on es sind (not es ist, or es gibt). Thanks.

why "bis nach Rom"
why not bis (without nach)?
...
Both is OK. "Bis nach" in my ears sounds more formal e.g. higher level.

Back to topic:
no idea if it comes from French (German culture's reference point being France), anyway it's like in French:

Il y a -> es hat ; which implies a direct object. Like "hay" in Spanish. Not important if a singular or plural, it's always "es hat". Easy, so far, apart from the fact that it sounds southern German.



Much unlike "C'è" or "Ci sono" e.g. in Italian, which imply a subject.

In between the two there is

Ce sont -> es sind (not "ist"; meanwhile in modern French also "C'est" is used).

Besides that, also "haben" and all other verbs can be used in the 3d plural form, if the subject is inverted:
E.g. Es haben aber nicht alle einen Hut. Something like Ce ne sont pas tous qui ont le chapeau.
Es gehen nicht alle in die Kirche.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05.01.2015, 00:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,172
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Es gibt needs an Accusative object. Don't argue with German verbs, just submit to their power. Kilometer are not object here because the kilometers are not to be had, it's a quantity of a thing, not the thing in itself. As soon as you say the thing (Autobahn etc.), it can be accusative object hence you can use es gift. But in the sentence, Kilometer are subject, the es in front of it just fills the blank at the head of the sentence (syntactic expletive), but the agreement is with the actual subjects (the kilometers).

Ironically, French uses il y a in this case, not c'est/ce sont. Different grammar reasoning than in German.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 05.01.2015, 09:16
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,986
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
Es gibt needs an Accusative object. Don't argue with German verbs, just submit to their power. Kilometer are not object here because the kilometers are not to be had, it's a quantity of a thing, not the thing in itself. As soon as you say the thing (Autobahn etc.), it can be accusative object hence you can use es gift. But in the sentence, Kilometer are subject, the es in front of it just fills the blank at the head of the sentence (syntactic expletive), but the agreement is with the actual subjects (the kilometers).

Ironically, French uses il y a in this case, not c'est/ce sont. Different grammar reasoning than in German.
I forced myself to learn "es gibt" as "it gives", rather than "there is" or "there are". even then, I go out of my way to avoid it
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05.01.2015, 09:44
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,720
Groaned at 297 Times in 254 Posts
Thanked 22,015 Times in 8,007 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
I go out of my way to avoid it
Me too, sounds way too much like a Swiss trying hard to talk standard German... as if you hit "'s haett" with a sledgehammer till it somehow looks like proper German.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Treverus for this post:
  #15  
Old 05.01.2015, 09:54
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 8,759
Groaned at 259 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 17,699 Times in 7,186 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

The OP's fundamental question still hasn't really been answered: Why does "es" (3rd person singular) not have to agree with "sind" (3rd person plural)? Given that there is more than one kilometre being discussed, why is the correct form not "Sie sind ..."?

(My stab at an explanation -- which, on re-reading, is pretty much what Faltrad wrote: in this context, "es" should be taken to mean "there", rather than the 3rd person personal pronoun. So "sind" agrees with the plural subject "76 Kilometer", not with "Es".)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 05.01.2015, 11:08
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: CH
Posts: 1,047
Groaned at 244 Times in 117 Posts
Thanked 697 Times in 433 Posts
Bucentaure is considered unworthyBucentaure is considered unworthyBucentaure is considered unworthy
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
...
Ironically, French uses il y a in this case, not c'est/ce sont. Different grammar reasoning than in German.
I see the difference between German and English in this grammar thing, not between German and French.
That diction uses some verbs in a certain context, others in another, doesn't overthrow the concept.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05.01.2015, 00:40
Jern's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bern
Posts: 908
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,092 Times in 471 Posts
Jern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
Both is OK. "Bis nach" in my ears sounds more formal e.g. higher level.
Beides ist OK in German, but Both are OK in English.

Also, you mean i.e., not e.g.

This are all very confusing, i.e. it is time for bed.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Jern for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 05.01.2015, 09:56
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,690
Groaned at 282 Times in 233 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
Beides ist OK in German, but Both are OK in English.

Also, you mean i.e., not e.g.

This are all very confusing, i.e. it is time for bed.
True - to a certain extent, it depends on context.

"How far is it to Rome?" "It is 76km"
"How many KMs are there between here and Rome?" "There are 76km"

The former implies that the number of KMs describes the distance (singular) - the latter requires the number of KMs

The same is true of time:
"How will it take to get to Rome?" "It is 45 minutes"
"How many minutes in an hour?" "There are 60 minutes in an hour"
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 05.01.2015, 22:04
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Basel-Stadt
Posts: 509
Groaned at 33 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 427 Times in 234 Posts
snapsterone has earned the respect of manysnapsterone has earned the respect of manysnapsterone has earned the respect of many
Re: why use "sind" here?

Quote:
View Post
Both is OK. "Bis nach" in my ears sounds more formal e.g. higher level.

Back to topic:
no idea if it comes from French (German culture's reference point being France), anyway it's like in French:

Il y a -> es hat ; which implies a direct object. Like "hay" in Spanish. Not important if a singular or plural, it's always "es hat". Easy, so far, apart from the fact that it sounds southern German.



Much unlike "C'è" or "Ci sono" e.g. in Italian, which imply a subject.

In between the two there is

Ce sont -> es sind (not "ist"; meanwhile in modern French also "C'est" is used).

Besides that, also "haben" and all other verbs can be used in the 3d plural form, if the subject is inverted:
E.g. Es haben aber nicht alle einen Hut. Something like Ce ne sont pas tous qui ont le chapeau.
Es gehen nicht alle in die Kirche.
"(German culture's reference point being France)"

Well that is an interesting point, does Switzerland come into it?
I`d say that it is not declined and that the subject is not inverted (sic)
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Why would you move here from Australia?!" AussieSwiss Complaints corner 86 24.09.2012 01:17
"Fair use" of "FiberSpeed100" plans - fair to whom??! A Friend TV/internet/telephone 5 25.02.2012 15:18
Use of the word "mega" in schweizerdeutsch :) profe1979 Language corner 15 22.08.2011 18:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0