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  #21  
Old 30.01.2018, 20:00
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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I knew that would be mentioned. But from what I've read, and translated, there are a number of Swiss-specific words that complicate things, not to mention the quoted areas like:

«Ich habe nit ermanglet, mit Herrn Haubtm. und Land-schreiber Werdmuller an dem Orth selbsten den Augenschein einzunemmen und mich allesen nach Nothdurfft zu erkundi-gen, da sich dan gezeiget, daB Hausvatter und Mtitteren, junge Letith mit ihren Kinderen beyden Geschlechts in einer Kammer undereinanderen ligen, und in einer Stuben sich by einanderen aufhalten, an- und entkleiden miissen, daraus nit nur allerhand Gezanks und Zweytracht, sondern, weilen die Knable and Magdle zu ihren manbahren Jahren anwachsen und gegen einanderen in naher Blutsverschwandtschaft ste-hen, leicht allerhand Aergernussen entstehen mochten, also daB einer christlichen Oberkeit Pflicht erforderen, disen Din-gen also nit mehr zuzusehen, sondern denen by Zeiten zu stetiern. Und weilen ich vernommen, daB M. Gn. Herr Vor-fahrl bereits such an dieses wichtige Geschaft Hand ange-schlagen, habe ich auf gleichem FueB den Rath ertheilet und verhoffet, daB etwan durch guetliche Mittel und Wag denen Sacen geholfen werden mochte, so aber ohnerhaltlich gewe-sen, und euch M. Gn. Hochg. Herren, nachdeme nichts mehr uberig ware als das liebe Recht, lieber gefallen, das Geschaft an unser allerseiths gnedige Herren und Obere zu bringen . . .»
This is partly "Altdeutsch" (old German), I didn't notice that. The phrasing and spelling used to be very different (Orth - now Ort .... da sich dan gezeiget - now da sich dann zeigte ...)
You can see that it is still German at the double-s (ß) which is not used in Switzerland.

PS. This will be lost in translation but that doesn't really matter
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  #22  
Old 30.01.2018, 20:05
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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That's not Swiss German, just old standard German.

Tom
Even the standard German in Switzerland has been effected by other languages and is not fully equal to the German language as used in Germany.

Simple example, Velo instead of Fahrrad.

As for OP, look around for a group of Germans in America or something like that, I would not be surprised if an American on pension would do it for a fraction of the Swiss prices.
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Old 30.01.2018, 20:18
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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Even the standard German in Switzerland has been effected by other languages and is not fully equal to the German language as used in Germany.

Simple example, Velo instead of Fahrrad.

As for OP, look around for a group of Germans in America or something like that, I would not be surprised if an American on pension would do it for a fraction of the Swiss prices.
That is beside the point here. Until mid 1920-ies a "Fahrrad" was a motorbike in German.


Until 1885 a bicycle was called "Veloziped" (which was borrowed from the French vélocipède) in German. Also known as the " zweirädrige Veloziped".

Altdeutsch has nothing to do with Swiss-German - except that Swiss German of course also changed since then.
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Old 30.01.2018, 20:20
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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This is partly "Altdeutsch" (old German), I didn't notice that. The phrasing and spelling used to be very different (Orth - now Ort .... da sich dan gezeiget - now da sich dann zeigte ...)
Yeah, that's one of my problems. I can read badly misspelled English very well. You may have seen some sentences intentionally misspelled with letters reversed and such, yet we can read it, as I'm sure you can the above. But automatic translators don't know all the misspellings, so I get a mix of mostly English with a bunch of misspelled German words mixed in. So each word becomes a quest: is is misspelled? Is it a proper noun? Did the OCR work right? I've spend days finding out Molassegrund was, for example, and am still not sure it's right.
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You can see that it is still German at the double-s (ß) which is not used in Switzerland.
Really? I know it's being replaced in Germany, but didn't know it really wasn't used in Switzerland. I mail software programs around the world, including may to Germany and Switzerland, and capitalize the addresses (as seems to be the norm here), and always wondered if Berlinstraße becomes BERLINSTRASSE or what? I person I worked with insisted that with that Germans & Swiss wouldn't capitalize addresses. ;-)

I assume you're not getting rid of uhmlauts, though? So my ancestors name Rösli wouldn't become Roesli.
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  #25  
Old 30.01.2018, 20:43
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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Yeah, that's one of my problems. I can read badly misspelled English very well. You may have seen some sentences intentionally misspelled with letters reversed and such, yet we can read it, as I'm sure you can the above. But automatic translators don't know all the misspellings, so I get a mix of mostly English with a bunch of misspelled German words mixed in. So each word becomes a quest: is is misspelled? Is it a proper noun? Did the OCR work right? I've spend days finding out Molassegrund was, for example, and am still not sure it's right.

Really? I know it's being replaced in Germany, but didn't know it really wasn't used in Switzerland. I mail software programs around the world, including may to Germany and Switzerland, and capitalize the addresses (as seems to be the norm here), and always wondered if Berlinstraße becomes BERLINSTRASSE or what? I person I worked with insisted that with that Germans & Swiss wouldn't capitalize addresses. ;-)

I assume you're not getting rid of uhmlauts, though? So my ancestors name Rösli wouldn't become Roesli.
eeeehhhm, it's not misspelt, it's German from a different century

How did capitalisazion come into this?
Berlinstraße will be correct in Germany. Would we have a Berlinstrasse in Switzerland, that's how it would be spelt. There is no ß on the Swiss keyboard either. If you want to type it you need to use "alt", keep it pressed and typ 0223.

I guess when writing an address by hand it helps if capital letters are used (just like they ask you when filling in forms). Apart from that I seee no reason to do it. (You write a letter in capital letters and they will feel you're shouting at them )

Nope, sorry, we did no get rid of the "Umlaute" and don't plan to either
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Old 30.01.2018, 20:49
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Yep, the ß (Eszett or "scharfes S") has been eliminated from German (even so-called high German) in Switzerland -- thank goodness! The same symbol is used for upper case and lower case, so there would be no need to write the double S in standard German in the example you gave.

Umlauts still thrive. They (usually) don't work in URLs, so your family website would be reduced to roesli.ch, but otherwise you'll see umlauts littering the place everywhere. Actually, ä, ö and ü aren't just letters with an accent (like à, é and è in French), they are separate letters in their own right.

No, we don't habitually write addresses in upper case. I do, when addressing envelopes, but that's because my handwriting is lousy and I want my letters to get delivered!
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Old 30.01.2018, 20:54
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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That is beside the point here. Until mid 1920-ies a "Fahrrad" was a motorbike in German.


Until 1885 a bicycle was called "Veloziped" (which was borrowed from the French vélocipède) in German. Also known as the " zweirädrige Veloziped".

Altdeutsch has nothing to do with Swiss-German - except that Swiss German of course also changed since then.
My point was that if this has been written by somebody from Switzerland that it is likely not German as the translation apps expect it to be due to different words. And Velo is a good example for such and a wiki quote is not going to change this.
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Old 30.01.2018, 20:57
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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Yep, the ß (Eszett or "scharfes S") has been eliminated from German (even so-called high-German) in Switzerland -- thank goodness! The same symbol is used for upper case and lower case, so there would be no need to write the double S in standard German in the example you gave.
Wow, really?? I didn't know that. So BERLINSTRAßE is actually correct, if upper case is used?
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No, we don't habitually write addresses in upper case. I do, when addressing envelopes, but that's because my handwriting is lousy and I want my letters to get delivered!
Well, I do for that reason too. Plus the U.S. post office prefers (not requires) that addresses be in upper case. So I've always wondered if, for Berlinstraße, if it should be written BERLINSTRASSE (never guessed that BERLINSTRAßE would be acceptable, as always considered ß lower case).
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Old 30.01.2018, 20:58
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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Yep, the ß (Eszett or "scharfes S") has been eliminated from German (even so-called high-German) in Switzerland -- thank goodness! The same symbol is used for upper case and lower case, so there would be no need to write the double S in standard German in the example you gave.

Umlauts still thrive. They (usually) don't work in URLs, so your family website would be reduced to roesli.ch, but otherwise you'll see umlauts littering the place everywhere. Actually, ä, ö and ü aren't just letters with an accent (like à, é and è in French), they are separate letters in their own right.

No, we don't habitually write addresses in upper case. I do, when addressing envelopes, but that's because my handwriting is lousy and I want my letters to get delivered!
What? LOL.
So you want to write Berlinstrase now? Well - as a foreigner you'll get away with it but don't teach it

And you are not up to date, Umlaute can be used in domain-names for a few years now.


addition:
zürich.ch
Diese Domain ist vergeben.
zürich.ch
whois.nic.ch
whois: This information is subject to an Acceptable Use Policy.
See https://www.nic.ch/terms/aup/


Domain name:
zürich.ch
xn--zrich-kva.ch

Holder of domain name:
Anlauf- und Koordinationsstelle Wirtschaft der Stadt Zürich
Benno Seiler
Wirtschaftsförderung
CH-8001 Zürich
Switzerland

Registrar:
amenic ag

First registration date:
2004-03-03

DNSSEC:N

Name servers:
ns1.ip-plus.net
ns1.stzh.ch [194.56.3.70]
ns2.stzh.ch [194.56.3.74]

Last edited by curley; 30.01.2018 at 21:05. Reason: addition
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  #30  
Old 30.01.2018, 21:01
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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Wow, really?? I didn't know that. So BERLINSTRAßE is actually correct, if upper case is used?

Well, I do for that reason too. Plus the U.S. post office prefers (not requires) that addresses be in upper case. So I've always wondered if, for Berlinstraße, if it should be written BERLINSTRASSE (never guessed that BERLINSTRAßE would be acceptable, as always considered ß lower case).
Yes, BERLINSTRAßE is correct. But be aware that not every double S is rendered as ß! Bundesstraße is a nice example. Also the word "besser"... and many others.
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Old 30.01.2018, 21:05
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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Yes, BERLINSTRAßE is correct. But be aware that not every double S is rendered as ß! Bundesstraße is a nice example. Also the word "besser"... and many others.
Thanks, and yeah, my limited German does know the difference. Always liked the Eszett; way back when, had to use a capital "B" for it on my typewriter.
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Old 30.01.2018, 21:07
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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What? LOL.
So you want to write Berlinstrase now? Well - as a foreigner you'll get away with it but don't teach it

And you are not up to date, Umlaute can be used in domain-names for a few years now.
Frau curley,

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So you want to write Berlinstrase now?
Huh? Where did you get that weird idea? I said that there was no need to use double S when writing in capitals in standard German; one would use the ß.

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And you are not up to date, Umlaute can be used in domain-names for a few years now.
And I know that umlauts can be used in URLs in some cases only -- that's why I said "they (usually) don't work", because not every web browser, nor hosting service -- especially in the US, where the OP resides -- can handle them.

Anyway, it should be "Umlauts have been used... for a few years now".

Now please carry on.
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Old 30.01.2018, 21:20
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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Frau curley,
yes, Mr. 22

Huh? Where did you get that weird idea? I said that there was no need to use double S when writing in capitals in standard German; one would use the ß.
Yep, that is correct. Misread that.

And I know that umlauts can be used in URLs in some cases only -- that's why I said "they (usually) don't work", because not every web browser, nor hosting service -- especially in the US, where the OP resides -- can handle them.
Let's ask OP to type "zürich.ch" into his/her browser and tell us, whether she lands on an insurance company site in Switzerland, shall we?
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Anyway, it should be "Umlauts have been used... for a few years now".
I disagree. Both is correct, Mr. "I" .... as they could have been used even if they hadn't - which they have. ROFL.

Now please carry on.
Sorry OP. We went way off your subject.
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Old 30.01.2018, 21:23
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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[SIZE="2"]
Sorry OP. We went way off your subject.
No problem. It's all interesting. And with easy and affordable solutions.
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Old 30.01.2018, 21:25
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

OP, for your enjoyment: the evolution of written German.

Ye not-so-olde German:



After orthographical reform:



After those enlightened Swiss cleaned up the language:

Google map showing Schlossstrasse

Even the Germans get confused...

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Old 30.01.2018, 21:26
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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I guess the key is "old". Many years ago, I sent a couple of these passages to a professor who specialized in old German, he couldn't translate all the words, thinking that some my be local to Switzerland.
Post the words or phrases here which your professor in old German could not translate and I am sure you'll get at least a plausible answer here.
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Old 30.01.2018, 21:32
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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I disagree. Both is correct, Mr. "I" .... as they could have been used even if they hadn't - which they have. ROFL.


But anyway, no, in English one would not say "Umlaute can be used in domain-names for a few years now". Firstly, because the construction is just wrong, and secondly, because "domain name" is not hyphenated.

Trust me.

As for umlauts, see here.

PS I'm sure 'Mr. "I"' is a veiled slight, but I'm too tired to remember what it is... PM me (as we should be on PM anyway, to try to salvage the OP's quest for meaningful translation of old/Swiss German).

ETA: I just tried "zürich.ch" in both Chrome and Edge. In both cases, the browser converted the address to "http://xn--zrich-kva.ch/" (see the link I provided, above). In Chrome, the connection to the server timed out. So, FAIL. In Edge, the browser interpreted the address as a Google search, and returned a list of Google results for the search term "zürich.ch", most of which related to "zurich.ch". So, FAIL.

So, as I said...

Last edited by 22 yards; 30.01.2018 at 21:43.
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Old 30.01.2018, 22:05
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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But anyway, no, in English one would not say "Umlaute can be used in domain-names for a few years now". Firstly, because the construction is just wrong, and secondly, because "domain name" is not hyphenated.

Trust me.

As for umlauts, see here.

PS I'm sure 'Mr. "I"' is a veiled slight, but I'm too tired to remember what it is... PM me (as we should be on PM anyway, to try to salvage the OP's quest for meaningful translation of old/Swiss German).

ETA: I just tried "zürich.ch" in both Chrome and Edge. In both cases, the browser converted the address to "http://xn--zrich-kva.ch/" (see the link I provided, above). In Chrome, the connection to the server timed out. So, FAIL. In Edge, the browser interpreted the address as a Google search, and returned a list of Google results for the search term "zürich.ch", most of which related to "zurich.ch". So, FAIL.

So, as I said...
<<domain name" is not hyphenated.>> LOL, you catch at every straw.
And I don't trust Australians when it comes to the English language

I love the post with the pictures and yes, OP, we forgot to tell you that "old German" should probably be renamed into "very old German" as there is an even newer than the new (can't wait for the comments on this one) German now, called: "neue deutsche Rechtschreibung". The ugliest thing ever invented, I simply ignore it

Mr. 22, time to update your browser. And Edge - ha! Who's surprised ....

And OP, if you're interested in the difference of the German and the Swiss "high-German". The Swiss usually don't use capital Umlaute at the beginning of words. So it will be Österreich but Oesterreich in Switzerland for Austria, Öl but Oel in Switzerland for oil etc. Again Ä, Ö, Ü are not on a Swiss keyboard (they are on the German ones) but of course can be done with shift+ä/ö/ü
My word equivalent program puts "Oel "in red every blooming time. LOL.

So, looks like you won't get your text translated here but learn a lot about writing peculiarities in Switzerland. Hope you enjoy it
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Old 30.01.2018, 22:32
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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And OP, if you're interested in the difference of the German and the Swiss "high-German". The Swiss usually don't use capital Umlaute at the beginning of words. So it will be Österreich but Oesterreich in Switzerland for Austria, Öl but Oel in Switzerland for oil etc. Again Ä, Ö, Ü are not on a Swiss keyboard (they are on the German ones) but of course can be done with shift+ä/ö/ü
Well, that's a few less Ctrl-### combinations I don't need to remember. ;-) Didn't know that either; thanks.
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Old 30.01.2018, 22:54
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Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

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always wondered if Berlinstraße becomes BERLINSTRASSE or what?
Berlinstr.

Tom
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