Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Language corner
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 13.02.2018, 19:19
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 7,772
Groaned at 64 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 11,204 Times in 5,090 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
Thanks. Maybe here just Large Kettle.
A large kettle put into a stone stove.
Name:  braentolle.jpg
Views: 94
Size:  181.1 KB

Quote:
View Post

Wie Heinrich Heusser zu Tafleten vor 320 Jahren
sein Gut bewirtschaftete
Der Hof Tafleten umfasste im Jahre 1660
69 Jucharten Acker = 2484 a
24 Tagwen Wiese und Ried = 768 a
6 Jucharten Weide = 216 a
12 Vi Jucharten Wald = 500 a
Total 3968 a
1 a (Are) is 100 m^2,
1 ha (Hektare) = 100 a
1 ha = 2.471 acres
1 km^2 = 100 ha

So 1 Juchart is 36 a = 0.36 ha = 0.89 acres

How big a Juchart is depends on where it is, steep land is not as easy to work on and some oxen are lazier than others : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juchart


Quote:
View Post
I've translated Acker as fields, Wiese as meadows, would those be correct?
Correct

Quote:
View Post
And would "Mannwerk" be handworked?

I see above, Tagwen seems to indicate a daily production rate as well, in this case 32 acres? Would Mannwerk be the same?
Tagwen = Tagwerk = Tagwan = Mannwerk = Juchart are roughly the same and denotes a size of land which can be mended by one person in a day with an oxen.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagewerk

Fastnacht is now and specially today. 47 days before Easter. It is the days before lent. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_Gras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival
No wonder the feudal lords wanted something to eat from their peasants farm.

Saum Wein: A Saum is a barrel of 130 - 180 liters
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D25985.php

Schuppose: According to DWB it denotes an area of land roughly the size of 12 juchart.
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/call_w...&lemid=GS19298
__________________
PLAYER 1 ENTER YOUR NAME:_
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 13.02.2018, 19:39
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Chapin
Posts: 29
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts
rraisley has no particular reputation at present
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
Have a look at the late edit I made to my previous post.

For all the other questions, I suggest you try running your phrases through the excellent Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz, then running the answer through deepl.
Good source. Thanks very much!
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 13.02.2018, 19:49
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Chapin
Posts: 29
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts
rraisley has no particular reputation at present
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
A large kettle put into a stone stove.
Attachment 132129



1 a (Are) is 100 m^2,
1 ha (Hektare) = 100 a
1 ha = 2.471 acres
1 km^2 = 100 ha

So 1 Juchart is 36 a = 0.36 ha = 0.89 acres
That starts to make sense now. Not familiar with Are measure. It also jives closely with the other figure I found, of 1 Juchart = 40,000 square feet (60,000 sf in early times), so .92 acres more current, 1.38 acre earlier.
Quote:
Tagwen = Tagwerk = Tagwan = Mannwerk = Juchart are roughly the same and denotes a size of land which can be mended by one person in a day with an oxen.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagewerk

Fastnacht is now and specially today. 47 days before Easter. It is the days before lent. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_Gras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival
No wonder the feudal lords wanted something to eat from their peasants farm.

Saum Wein: A Saum is a barrel of 130 - 180 liters
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D25985.php

Schuppose: According to DWB it denotes an area of land roughly the size of 12 juchart.
http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/call_w...&lemid=GS19298
Oh, neat. Wondered why they gave it number as well.

Thank you guys, this is fantastic.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 13.02.2018, 20:12
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 7,772
Groaned at 64 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 11,204 Times in 5,090 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
So, a Winter Chicken? Too early for Spring Chicken. And half a chicken?
A chicken which had to be delivered at Carnival time. As they were eaten, half a chicken is o.k. And the feudal lords do not want to look too greedy,

Quote:
View Post
Oh, and on the map on page 65:

Birch: birch trees? Possible there were once birch trees.
Gatter: fenced area?
Riet: reeds or brush? Marshland, bog, were Reed grows
Im Hau: a building area? Wood. Where they chopped wood https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/-hau
Im Moos: mossy area? Would say so.
Loo: ??? Wood. See Idiotikon, also a good reference next to the DWB https://digital.idiotikon.ch/idtkn/i...30951/mode/1up
Breite: wide or width, but a description of land? Could be.
Roosen: roses?? What is the name of your ancestors again?
Musental: possibly a place? some valley.
Aufhänke: possibly a place? Where the gallow was
Häsental: possibly a place? Mabe the valley where rabbits live
Steintobel: possibly a place?Small stoney valley.
All names of the local places/surrounding.

Here the official map from 1912 where you can see them all (most?).
You can change the time line setting in the lower left hand corner.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&to...9001.61&zoom=7
__________________
PLAYER 1 ENTER YOUR NAME:_
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 13.02.2018, 20:41
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Chapin
Posts: 29
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts
rraisley has no particular reputation at present
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
A chicken which had to be delivered at Carnival time. As they were eaten, half a chicken is o.k. And the feudal lords do not want to look too greedy,
Hehe.... "No, just a leg and a thigh, please. The wife's making fondue fo dinner."
Quote:
All names of the local places/surrounding.

Here the official map from 1912 where you can see them all (most?).
You can change the time line setting in the lower left hand corner.

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&to...9001.61&zoom=7
Wow, wonderful source!

I'd like your opinion, though. My sources list my ancestors Rösli as basically the only occupants of the Eschenberg forest until just before the date of this map, which includes all those places or names, in 1758. The earliest map available on this site is 1844, and all the "names" except "Im Moos" (Moos is on later maps) and "Breite". If no one else was living there then, would they all have "place" names, or would these be descriptions, that later became place names? Hard to tell, but I'd like your thoughts.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 13.02.2018, 21:00
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Chapin
Posts: 29
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts
rraisley has no particular reputation at present
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
Tollenkessi: "Kessi" means "Kessel", a kettle or cauldron, size can be anything bigger than, say, one litre. Not sure what the "Tollen" part means.

«frächer wys zwo Eichen, deren eine drey schu breit über dem Stockh, und auch ein forren abghauwen und theils dem Wagner zu Seen verkaufft und (die) forren alharo zu der Steinmülli (Steigmühle) geführt»

He brazenly sold two oak trees, one of which was already on the chopping block, to the wagoner in Seen (a location, there's a locatioin called "Winterthur Seen" today). In addition he cut down a Scots pine and brought it to the Steigmühle (a certain mill, there's still a location by that name, "Winterthur Steigmühle").
In the above, what was your translation of "alharo". It appears elsewhere, and I had no idea about it.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 13.02.2018, 21:42
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Chapin
Posts: 29
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts
rraisley has no particular reputation at present
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

I have a question about land ownership, etc. during the time of this text (1400-1740). My ancestors, consisting of 3 separate lines of the same family, farmed Eschenberg pretty much by themselves for this time. They inherited it, supposedly, and also bought and sold the property to other people. Their taxes are often called interest or lease payments, so "ownership" is a bit confusing.

For example:
"Der Wegzug einzelner Rösli machte die Bahn für neue Mitbesitzer frei, wobei auch Einheirat je und je eine Rolle spielte. Im Jahre 1583 verkaufte Christen Rösli seinen Anteil am Haupthofe — Erblehen konnte man ja mit Wissen des Lehenherrn verkaufen — an Konrad Müller, worauf er nach Seen zog. Gleichzeitig veräußerte Martin Rösli das Ernisgütli dem gleichen Interessenten um 1250 Pfund."

Now, according to https://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/currency.htm, 1250 pounds in 1583 would be worth over $500,000 today.

Later, in 1725:
"Entweder kauft die Stadt Winterthur diesen die Güter ab, und zwar für 18,000 Gulden, 5o Mütt Kernen und 25 Saum Wein, worauf die Rösli bis Mai 1725 wegziehen müssen, oder sie gibt ihnen das Holz für eine Stube und einige Kammern."

Another site lists 18,000 guilders in 1725 as being worth over $400,000 today.

So, if this was a fiefdom, and if they really didn't own the land but just rented it, why were they able to buy and sell it, especially for so much?
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 13.02.2018, 21:50
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 7,772
Groaned at 64 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 11,204 Times in 5,090 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
In the above, what was your translation of "alharo". It appears elsewhere, and I had no idea about it.
Urs did not translate/use this word. But from the context and location of the farm I used "down to".

Quote:
View Post
I'd like your opinion, though. My sources list my ancestors Rösli as basically the only occupants of the Eschenberg forest until just before the date of this map, which includes all those places or names, in 1758. The earliest map available on this site is 1844, and all the "names" except "Im Moos" (Moos is on later maps) and "Breite". If no one else was living there then, would they all have "place" names, or would these be descriptions, that later became place names? Hard to tell, but I'd like your thoughts.

Actually, the oldest map from Swisstopo for that place is from 1850 (Dufuor Map https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/en/kn...ufour-map.html). If you select a year before you just see the current map.

I think the the map on page 65 shows and uses the current names of that areas. .Thez would have been wrtitten differentlz in Ye-Olde-Time. On the old map I linked Roosen is written as "In den Rosen" that shows that the usage and naming has changed over time. It is very usual to name areas, meadows, woods, and such. Specially when you have to work a week or more in one area. "Next week we will go to the Hau and collect wood, there are no fallen twigs left in the Loo". "The oats grow better at Breiti than Gatter". How they came up with the name? Give me a time machine and I will ask them.
__________________
PLAYER 1 ENTER YOUR NAME:_
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 13.02.2018, 22:10
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Chapin
Posts: 29
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts
rraisley has no particular reputation at present
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

In this paragraph:
«Uß gewüssen Uhrsachen» verliehen am 18. Februar die Schultheißen Hegner und Künzli, Statthalter Forrer, Bauherr Sulzer, Spitalmeister Kaufmann und der Hinwiler Amtmann Hegner zum «Kreuz» den Hofteil an Claus Rösli, den bisherigen Inhaber des Ernisgütlis, das er auch weiterhin behielt.

What do you think «Uß gewüssen Uhrsachen» means?

How about «Kreuz» in this context?
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 13.02.2018, 22:44
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 7,772
Groaned at 64 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 11,204 Times in 5,090 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
View Post
I have a question about land ownership, etc. during the time of this text (1400-1740). My ancestors, consisting of 3 separate lines of the same family, farmed Eschenberg pretty much by themselves for this time. They inherited it, supposedly, and also bought and sold the property to other people. Their taxes are often called interest or lease payments, so "ownership" is a bit confusing.

For example:
"Der Wegzug einzelner Rösli machte die Bahn für neue Mitbesitzer frei, wobei auch Einheirat je und je eine Rolle spielte. Im Jahre 1583 verkaufte Christen Rösli seinen Anteil am Haupthofe — Erblehen konnte man ja mit Wissen des Lehenherrn verkaufen — an Konrad Müller, worauf er nach Seen zog. Gleichzeitig veräußerte Martin Rösli das Ernisgütli dem gleichen Interessenten um 1250 Pfund."

Now, according to https://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/currency.htm, 1250 pounds in 1583 would be worth over $500,000 today.
The lease could be sold and transferred with permission of the lease giver.

The converter might be right may be not. As Pfund might or might not be the same as Sterling Pound at a given time.
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D13670.php
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D13675.php

http://weiachergeschichten.blogspot....-geld-wre.html

http://www.ruest.ch/downloads/Lohntabelle%2019%20Jh.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 14.02.2018, 11:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,153
Groaned at 160 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,569 Times in 3,373 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

Quote:
So, if this was a fiefdom, and if they really didn't own the land but just rented it, why were they able to buy and sell it, especially for so much?
It was fiefdom. There were two types, "Schenkung" (gift) which was tied to the recipient, and "Erblehen" which was heritable as indicated by its name ("Erb", "erben", inherit). Originally an Erblehen wasn't tradeable but apparently that changed.

A "Lehen" (Erblehen or Schenkung) encompassed not just the land but also the people living on it, if any. Usually the "Lehensmann" (the one holding the Erblehen) owed not just interest In return but also service, and soldiers in case of war.

Sidenote:
Thus no such thing as democracy until after Napoleon, who did away with nobility's privileges after conquering what would become Switzerland. So the Erblehen must have changed fundamentally or disappeared altogether during the 1st half of the 19th century.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 14.02.2018, 20:18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 485
Groaned at 36 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 621 Times in 274 Posts
marischi has an excellent reputationmarischi has an excellent reputationmarischi has an excellent reputationmarischi has an excellent reputation
Re: Suggestions for Translation of Swiss-German to English

I would translate "alharo" to "alhier". Alhier zu der Steinmüli - jene die in der Steinmüli wohnen.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Translation from German to English of Swiss Divorce Decree pjohnmathew Permits/visas/government 3 30.03.2017 09:34
Translation help please, english to swiss german for a birthday Sweetness Language corner 4 16.06.2012 01:49
English to Swiss-German Translation? dodgeydude24 Language corner 17 26.09.2011 08:25
Swiss-German to English Translation hanra Language corner 12 10.05.2010 02:05
English translation of Schaher seppli: Swiss german song darron Language corner 2 26.07.2008 22:50


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0