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  #41  
Old 21.01.2019, 07:33
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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But that's the issue, it would have to be an "overnight" change.

Exams are made on national level, and the same exam is given on all schools (tho on diff difficulty levels), students have to learn for what is on the exam, so nationwide they would have to introduce something new in all classes, the only distribution in this would be if they decide to do it in steps so students don't have a change in English if they for example go from second to 3rd class. But since people skip classes, or have to redo them, and some systems take 4 yrs for the same exam as where other systems will take 3 or 5 yrs they can never streamline such unless actually giving diff exams for the same thing (which I see never happening)


Now on the very long term and due to youth taking so many things from movies and music, it might be that in the far future UK English will adapt so much from US English that eventually the languages grow together in a way a lot of English would at this moment find disgusting
Having taken my German exam in Switzerland, I was informed that the examination centre in Frankfurt would allow High German (CH) words, articles, spelling (i.e. no ß). English teaching could remain the same but examiners could allow for Americanisation without docking points.
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  #42  
Old 21.01.2019, 13:20
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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But that's the issue, it would have to be an "overnight" change.

Exams are made on national level, and the same exam is given on all schools (tho on diff difficulty levels), students have to learn for what is on the exam, so nationwide they would have to introduce something new in all classes, the only distribution in this would be if they decide to do it in steps so students don't have a change in English if they for example go from second to 3rd class. But since people skip classes, or have to redo them, and some systems take 4 yrs for the same exam as where other systems will take 3 or 5 yrs they can never streamline such unless actually giving diff exams for the same thing (which I see never happening)


Now on the very long term and due to youth taking so many things from movies and music, it might be that in the far future UK English will adapt so much from US English that eventually the languages grow together in a way a lot of English would at this moment find disgusting



Doomed I tell you!!
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Old 21.01.2019, 14:55
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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Hi all


While talk of English losing its official status as an EU language may be exaggerated, could a consequence of Britain's absence from the Union be that British English will lose its priviledge of being the automatic choice for the classroom?


Could it be another step towards British irrelevance on the world stage, with the langauge of Shakespeare being cleaved from his homeland?


Any thoughts?
There's English and American English and that's largely a difference of some spellings (z not s), some semantic and syntactical shifts. British English is not a thing.

Standard English (SE) is however the thing and the English that is/should be modelled in every first language English classroom/learning environment and the one that should be taught in second/third/ fourth etc classrooms. It's standardised so everyone using it is starting from the same base line and is using the same code. I suppose that's why mathematics is truly international. No/less room for ambiguity.

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That has never been the case. The only reason that English is so relevant now is because the US. Keep in mind that French was the language of the world a 100 years ago. British English has only been important in countries in the British Empire.

More like 500 years. The gentry spoke French, their servant English... middle English any way. That is why we eat beef and lamb but the animals are cows and sheep. The servants didn't often get to eat what they tended to/ killed/ cooked for their masters. Everything worth writing was written in Latin. Then later French. The English then was the English of Chaucer and Shakespeare where syllables were stressed differently and spelling was not standard. Shakespearan English is quite removed from "modern " SE.




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There's no such thing as British English. There's English, and then there's American English, recognisably different mainly for its deliberately, but rather arbitrarily, changed spellings, and a whole range of cultural and geographical variants with less clear dividing lines.

Nothing about Britain as a nation, or its percieved status, will have the slightest affect on this, because the language preference has nothing to do with the nation itself.

This.

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Cambridge is rehauling their exams, as we speak. It needs to appeal and sell better.

The fun part is, that there isn't really a UK English in the EU, a close friend is an EU interpretter in Brussels and she's speaking the US version without any reactions of people. The English that is used amongst European non-Anglophones is quite special, not RP, simplified grammar and vocab.

The English in the int. schools here is quite American actually, even many UK kids start speaking it after a while amongst themselves. I guess series and youtoobers help the popularity. While I enjoy teaching and reading Shakespeare...most people probably prefer switching on Netflix. The chance you get to hear a yank accent will be high.
I'm with Sandgrounder here. I doubt the overhaul, if there is one, would impact on their usage of SE. It's more likely a reaction to the recently overhauled UK exams systems which will probably have them reorganizing their papers etc, not their requirements etc. Not sure how the Shakespeare Netflix comparison works. Other than if he were alive today he'd no doubt be in charge of Netflix content.

The kids may speak with US inflections, accents and syntax etc but the English will be SE for the international exams. The spelling is hidden when spoken

RP is an accent - what used to be called BBC or Queen's English- not a dialect or system. There is a lot of pigeon English in Europe. Just as there is no doubt "pigeon" German, French etc.

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Which now means that everyone is allowed to misspell any word.
As it was until the standardised spellengs were agreed upon and the definitive dictionaries were created. Shakespeare famously never spelled his own name the same way twice. And he made up a lot of words we use today.

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I've been told many times by English teachers, that the biggest difference in US English is the word 'gotten', which is viewed as old English in the UK.
It's non -standard English. Used in the bible i think. SE past tense is got, gotten is merely a derivative.

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"correct" depends on whether you was GB English, Oxford English or Cambridge English... They do differ... we don't have our own thoughts clear... at least Oxford English is acceptable, unlike "the other place"

For example, something like globalization (US/Oxf) is globalisation (GB/Camb).
What do you mean? AFAIK there is no Oxbridge English divide. Oxford produces arguably the definitive dictionary. Cambridge develops and administrates the world renowned English examinations. They both model and promote SE while recognising that deviations exist. No exam system in the UK penalises for American English spelling (although it is not encouraged in a UK classroom as it is, again, not the SE we are required to teach to).


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Many years ago, when I finished university I needed an English certificate. Cambridge exam was flavor agnostic, it was fine whichever English you spoke as long as you spoke consistently. I passed the exam using US English spelling.
Exactly. You could use SE.

Last edited by RufusB; 21.01.2019 at 15:26. Reason: Typo
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  #44  
Old 21.01.2019, 15:04
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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It's non -standard English. Used in the bible i think. SE past tense is got, gotten is merely a derivative.

I'm English and to me "gotten" is common usage.
In some parts of the US you can hear "tooken". I'm lead to believe it's also in the bible.


Rufus hasn't gotten any better at English!
Yeah but he's tooken lots of lessons!


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  #45  
Old 21.01.2019, 15:14
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

I believe that English will ironically become more accepted in the EU after Brexit: Last year I worked as a contractor for an EU institution. The employees are from all over the EU and there are even measures in place to make sure that no nationality is overrepresented or left out. (So if you come from a smaller EU country do you actually have an easier time to make a career there than Germans or French).

The thing is that for example French people dont like to switch to English in a meeting where native English speakers are present. They are quite sensitive about it.

The problem is that all the Eastern countries dont speak French or German, so English is really the only way forward. I believe that after Brexit people are much more willing to accept English as a lingua franca within the EU... (the only native speakers left are the Irish and they seem to struggle to speak comprehensible English to the same level a Frenchy does…)
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  #46  
Old 21.01.2019, 15:23
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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I'm English and to me "gotten" is common usage.
In some parts of the US you can hear "tooken". I'm lead to believe it's also in the bible.


Rufus hasn't gotten any better at English!
Yeah but he's tooken lots of lessons!


Common does not make it standard. It's still non-SE usage. Language usage is quite amorphous so it follows that everyone, or every
social group, develops their own idiom, just as you have done.

Have never heard of nor read "tooken". But I'm no biblical scholar.

And Rufus is not a he.
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  #47  
Old 21.01.2019, 16:11
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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But that's not true. Kids all over Europe learn British Standard English. Adult learners in Language Schools in Switzerland learn British Standard English. Cambridge provides examinations all over the world. British English is not confined to former colonies.
Our kids here appear to be being taught U.S. English.

When they query the teacher, often they are told they are wrong.

One example recently in English class:

Teacher "What colour are Mario's pants?"

My son, embarrassed, "How the hell should I know?"
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  #48  
Old 21.01.2019, 16:12
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

was it not 'what color' ?
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  #49  
Old 21.01.2019, 16:16
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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"What colour are Mario's pants?"
Blue. https://supermariorun.com/en-gb/index.html
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Old 21.01.2019, 16:18
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

"Pants" are also undercrackers, so Mario could have been wearing brown Y-fronts.
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  #51  
Old 21.01.2019, 16:39
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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Having taken my German exam in Switzerland, I was informed that the examination centre in Frankfurt would allow High German (CH) words, articles, spelling (i.e. no ß). English teaching could remain the same but examiners could allow for Americanisation without docking points.
Therer are exceptions of course, but actually many "CH high German" words are in fact correct High German but just not commonly used or even known by average high German speakers, or if used, then often used in a subtly different way.

I don't think the same can really be said of the differences between US and UK English. At least not generally.
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Old 21.01.2019, 16:49
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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Therer are exceptions of course, but actually many "CH high German" words are in fact correct High German but just not commonly used or even known by average high German speakers, or if used, then often used in a subtly different way.

I don't think the same can really be said of the differences between US and UK English. At least not generally.
Tough topic.


From my understanding, it is very equivalent comparisons (I can't really comment because my german isn't strong enough to see the differences).


But American English vs British English:
1. Different pronunciation
2. Some different spellings
3. Some different word uses


Standard Swiss German vs. Standard German
1. Different pronunciations? (Sometimes I can tell a Swiss person speaking German rather than a German, but unsure)
2. Some slight different spellings
3. Some different word uses


Maybe a bit simplistic approach, but I think the comparison holds (biggest difference is there's such a larger population and prevalence of all the languages other than Standard Swiss German - which is seldom heard relatively speaking.
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Old 21.01.2019, 17:19
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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What do you mean? AFAIK there is no Oxbridge English divide. Oxford produces arguably the definitive dictionary. Cambridge develops and administrates the world renowned English examinations. They both model and promote SE while recognising that deviations exist. No exam system in the UK penalises for American English spelling (although it is not encouraged in a UK classroom as it is, again, not the SE we are required to teach to).
This:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling

You'll find that while there is no "British" English, there is English GB (Great Britain), vs English US, CA, Oxford, etc...

The other place is a different story. Where Webster has led the EN-US spelling reform, on this side of the pond, the other place follows the "standardizsed EN-GB", while, Oxford has a slightly different take.

It's one of the wonderful reasons that you can excuse pretty much any spelling, as long as you remain consistent...
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Old 21.01.2019, 17:49
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

Important are the role models: you have
Ferguson english
Mourinho english
Wenger english
Shearer english
Messi no english



my favo(U)rite
Ralph Krueger german
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  #55  
Old 21.01.2019, 18:00
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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Important are the role models: you have
Ferguson english
Mourinho english
Wenger english
Shearer english
Messi no english



my favo(U)rite
Ralph Krueger german
Brexit is more of an EU than football topic as they are allowed to stay in Uefa…

So Id add the English of an EU commisioner, Guenter Oettinger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88OGXLFpeMw
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Old 21.01.2019, 18:13
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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This:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling

You'll find that while there is no "British" English, there is English GB (Great Britain), vs English US, CA, Oxford, etc...

The other place is a different story. Where Webster has led the EN-US spelling reform, on this side of the pond, the other place follows the "standardizsed EN-GB", while, Oxford has a slightly different take.

It's one of the wonderful reasons that you can excuse pretty much any spelling, as long as you remain consistent...
Still not clear on what you mean by Cambridge English. What you seem to refer to as Oxford English is Standard English. AFAIK, they use SE in Cambridge too!

I don't see it as one system versus another but as branches of the same tree.

Consistency is I suppose important re s or z usage but if non-standard spellings are habitually used, then the user is using non-SE and is not therefore operating within the same codified system as "everyone" else.



This is quite a fun article in just this topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...sation/263091/


Btw, I was always taught that - ise was SE, - ize American English.
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Old 21.01.2019, 18:14
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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"Pants" are also undercrackers, so Mario could have been wearing brown Y-fronts.
... over his fanny yes, men have fannies in 'Murica.
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Old 21.01.2019, 18:20
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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Still not clear on what you mean by Cambridge English. What you seem to refer to as Oxford English is Standard English. AFAIK, they use SE in Cambridge too!

I don't see it as one system versus another but as branches of the same tree.

Consistency is I suppose important re s or z usage but if non-standard spellings are habitually used, then the user is using non-SE and is not therefore operating within the same codified system as "everyone" else.
Do you realise or realize something?

In Oxford, you realize... in SE you realise that the correct spelling is with a z
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Old 21.01.2019, 18:25
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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... over his fanny yes, men have fannies in 'Murica.
In their pants?
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Old 21.01.2019, 18:59
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Re: As a result of Brexit could British English be marching towards irrelevance?

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Do you realise or realize something?

In Oxford, you realize... in SE you realise that the correct spelling is with a z

Realise is SE in the UK. I'm pretty confused as I'm only really finding that one Wiki page about -ize as UK SE usage. Everything else says - ise is UK SE. It's certainly what has been standard in all my education and in my professional usage. The OUP house style is apparently-ize but i believe that was a historical decision and -ise is considered standard UK usage (sometimes interchanged with -ize) and - ize wholly American. -ise derives from the French derived words we use and have become more prevalent. -ize from the Greek /Latin.

Different publishers have different formats, just like different universities have different formats for essays.

Maybe it's better / more accurate to say that typical UK usage is -ise.
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