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  #21  
Old 27.11.2019, 17:09
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Not all prices are higher - much of the high-tech outdoor apparel one finds in Transa (priced higher than eg Bergzeit) is Scandinavian brands. Go to Naturkompaniet in Sweden or Norway, the same items cost less even with the 25% tax.

Compared to most of CH fresh fish and seafood is more readily available and affordable. Maybe this is different where you liveseems everything is

Weather is a matter of perspective - and as we’ve all heard “no such thing as bad weather only unfit attire”. CH has pretty horrible weather too, at times. I have yet to find my “Swiss place” that brings the headspace I get in the Norwegian mountains - and 10,000 Eurobonus miles gets one from Oslo almost to the North pole and back. I won’t need a membership with Exit if I can get myself to Svalbard and head out unarmed.

Not being able to survive on a single salary is not purely a negative.

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More free time? You are joking.

Prices are higher, 25% VAT (100% of vehicles), and like in all nordic countries a family cannot survive on a single salary, unlike here.

Wine is extremely expensive.

And the weather sucks, especially in winter.

It's a nice place to visit when on the company dime, however.

Tom
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  #22  
Old 27.11.2019, 17:17
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

The countries you mentioned (Holland, Denmark, Norway) are all relatively similar to Switzerland in many regards. If you are looking for a completely different cultural experience, why not try something a little further afield? Qualified medical professionals are welcomed all over the world.
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  #23  
Old 27.11.2019, 17:22
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

We (Dutch couple) are likely moving back within the next year or two after 15+ years abroad, almost 10 of which in CH. This is mostly so our aging parents can enjoy their grandkids a little more but not just that. Unlike here, we would be able to afford to buy a house with a garden in an urban area (even in Amsterdam, not in the center obviously). We miss the direct communication, more open society and bluntly, that something out-of-the-ordinary happens once in a while. In my view, work-life balance is better - even 1:4 men work part-time. Of course, this is based on very personal experiences and we can't guarantee we won't be terribly sorry about our choice and back in no time

From a professional point of view you would have to chat with other doctors. Working conditions might be worse but I would say that also in medicine hierarchies are flatter. It is true that there was a country-wide strike for better working conditions in hospitals last week but in fact not many doctors participated as conditions for specialists and even for assistants, are supposedly quite good: this article that you could google-translate does mention they did support the strike as bad conditions for other hospital workers obviously affect them indirectly.
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Old 27.11.2019, 18:55
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

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You have to follow the procedure perfectly according to law without a single error, and even than it has to be held against what did the company do to prevent it, are the consequences for the employee not too harsh when compared with what he did, is the burden of proof beyond any doubt etc.. etc.. Employee protection in the Netherlands is ridiculous.
Interestingly, this was a person who was always taking time off sick, and we had to pay him as you say, though just 80% of his salary. Though we did stop (as you could then) and let social security pay instead, rather than us claim it back, which is what happened. One day we had a container inspection in the port of Rotterdam, which he was responsible for carrying out. Of course he called in sick that day so with one of my managers we decided to do it ourselves. As we drove past the warehouses lo and behold, we saw him unloading a container, so I took some photos of him with a polaroid I always kept in the car for proof in case of any damages.

With this evidence we showed him, he quickly resigned, rather than face the wrath of the social security office. As an employer you can be swindled and the state does nothing, but swindle the state and they come down on you like a ton of bricks!!
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  #25  
Old 28.11.2019, 11:46
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Hi!

We left Switzerland 2 years ago for Singapore.

Some things have turned out like we thought, and some not at all. Some of the life aspect we thought we would love, we have not and some things we did not expect, we started appreciating. You will indeed not know until you live in a place - this is normal as short stints on vacation can only do so much.

I lived in the Netherlands a long time ago for 6 months and I really liked it! If it was not for the weather and language (for the kids schooling etc) it is also a country I would strongly consider.
Also lived in Norway for 6 months - it is beautiful but would not live there. For me it was hard to get to know the locals and the weather definitely got to me.

All of this to say that if you are motivated and perhaps single and without family, go and do it or at least try. IMHO it is better to return in 2 years because in the end you did not like it that much (perhaps) than to live your life wondering what it would have been like to move.

K
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  #26  
Old 28.11.2019, 12:36
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

"IMHO it is better to return in 2 years because in the end you did not like it that much (perhaps) than to live your life wondering what it would have been like to move."

I can totally understand this as my brother and his wife went to New Zealand about a year after they got married and came back after 2 years because my brother couldn't cope with being on the other side of the world. This was back in the mid 70s when it wasn't easy to just pick up a phone to call long distance because of the astronomical cost. When they came back to the UK they returned to a country in economic chaos and a Scotland that had gone into recession before everyone else. My brother is now almost 70 and retired and has sadly lived every day of his life in the knowledge that he probably should have stayed in NZ (and this hasn't been helped by the fact his wife didn't want to return to the UK and reminds him of this at every available opportunity).

My father was always sad that he had this fantastic chance to make a new life and it didn't work out, as my dad wanted to emigrate after the end of WW2 but didn't get the opportunity. Unfortunately the whole experience of being so far from home was making my brother ill, he looked like an anorexic when he returned.

I am very grateful to have had this opportunity to come and live in Switzerland in my 50s, if anyone had said to me 10 years ago I'd be living here I would have thought they were daft. It wasn't an easy transition at first due to a long term issue I have with a house we own back in Scotland, but I've eventually learned to go with the flow and just enjoy things.
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  #27  
Old 29.02.2020, 19:05
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

This kind of questions have no real answer as we have all a different point of view, attitude, weath etc, and in my opinion it does not make sense to influence somebody's else opinion for such matters.
If you are curious, you should try regardless of the opinions.

I lived in the NL (2y in The Hague and 2y in the surrounding of Amsterdam) in Italy (30 years in serveral cities in the north ) and 2y in Krakow (PL)
My preference goes to The Hague.
I am Italian and I really enjoyed living there. It has all I needed. The sea, the city, the nature in the countryside , clean air and herrings

The job market for my sector (telecoms) was very chaotic in my opinion. Companies(telcos) there are very dynamic. I had 3 different managers in 2 years, continuous re-organizations, and I met for the first time people that had to stay home because of burnout in both companies (they were both employees, one of them was Dutch ). Many emplloyees were always worried about this instability.

I didn't like the traffic there, especially in the A4 , always congested. Luckily I did not have to use it often.
Several colleagues used to drive between 1h and 1,5h to reach the office.

I also appreciated the fact that they have 1 month notice for both work termination and rental contract termination(there are exceptions of course).

Unfortunately I never managed to find a decent permanent job otherwise I would have stop there.

Last edited by marcofbbr; 29.02.2020 at 19:33.
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  #28  
Old 29.02.2020, 21:25
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

You write:I would like to live in a society which is less capitalistic than Switzerland.... If you'll examine the facts, there are over 20% living on your expense in social housing... in Geneva... check what is Asloca... you won't find it anywhere in the western world and count how many times the roads and the pavements are being paved again and again with no reason, but to pay some contractors with ties... much better and more normal, less corrupted in Amsterdam. don't think twice
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  #29  
Old 01.03.2020, 16:51
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

If you are not happy here, then you should definitely leave.

It makes no sense to stay here, if you are longing for a different type of environment and country.

Every place has its positives and its negatives.

I lived and worked in Amsterdam for four years. I loved it, and have many very fond memories of my time there. I was lucky as my employer paid for my two bedroom apartment on the Herrengracht. Otherwise, I would not have been able to afford it.

The challenge with the Netherlands is finding your place there - again, as noted before - not from a vacation or a weekend perspective, but from a living perspective. I ended up playing a lot of tennis and some golf with non Dutch people.... my social life in Amsterdam centered on work people and out of town visitors.... as it was challenging to meet people....

Do you share the hobbies that the Dutch love?

All of the Dutch people I met were extremely nice and friendly, but it was not easy socially. (Yes, I only ended up speaking Restaurant Nederlands...) The Dutch tend to couple up - common law style - early on and after that, it is not easy to integrate.... Also, when their working hours are done (normally 36 hour contracts), they hop on the train (or occasionally their bike) to head home, as very few can afford to live in Amsterdam....


So my advice is GO FOR IT with your eyes wide open, as you clearly need to leave here.... and I hope it works out for you.

All the best!
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  #30  
Old 28.03.2020, 15:19
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Hello everyone,

thank you very much for all your answers. They're very helpful. Yes, my main problem is the mentality. I have troubles with the judgmental attitude, the closed-mindedness and "each man for himself" mentality.

I grew up here, so I appreciate the nature, safety, politeness and political rights.

I just came back from Denmark and people where much nicer and easier to talk to and to meet than in Switzerland.

Denali92: very good points about the Dutch hobbies, I don't know.
Marcofbbr: I also appreciate very much the atmosphere in The Hague.
mgosia: very helpful, I agree. That's what I'm looking for: flatter hierarchies. I cannot stand anymore the authoritarian attitude of Swiss bosses.

I know the main point is to be sure that the country I will be choosing is a good country to LIVE and not only to go on Holiday.

I see myself as an innovator and where I live in Switzerland this is not a role that is very much valued. Also, it is so difficult to meet people as compared to when I'm in a different country. Even if I go towards people. In Switzerland, people keep to themselves and I'm a social guy, so this is the worst point.

In northern Europe, there is more of a sense of "togetherness" as exemplified by the terms "gezelligheid" or "hygge", which I value a lot.
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  #31  
Old 28.03.2020, 15:48
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

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I just came back from Denmark and people where much nicer and easier to talk to and to meet than in Switzerland.
I work for a Danish company and frequently visit the country for work and for pleasure. I can say that it is the only country I would want to live in outside of Switzerland. There is a far greater sense of community there and the quality of life is just as good, if not better. You won't make as much of a salary and you will pay higher taxes, but everything isn't about money. The one thing I would struggle to give up is Switzerland's access to nature. Denmark's nature is lovely too, but far less inspiring...so is the weather.

Good luck! I say go for it, sometimes we humans have to see what else is out there.
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  #32  
Old 01.06.2020, 12:39
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

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In northern Europe, there is more of a sense of "togetherness" as exemplified by the terms "gezelligheid" or "hygge", which I value a lot.
Sorry, but when I read this I thought immediately at Southern Europe (i.e. Italy, Spain)
The rule is that the northern you go, the "asocial" people tend to be - exactly the contrary of what you said
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  #33  
Old 01.06.2020, 12:45
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

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Sorry, but when I read this I thought immediately at Southern Europe (i.e. Italy, Spain)
The rule is that the northern you go, the "asocial" people tend to be - exactly the contrary of what you said
And you want to move to the North of Switzerland?

Have you ever lived in the Netherlands or Denmark? I do not agree with you on them being "asocial". Different mentality but that is to be expected.
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  #34  
Old 01.06.2020, 13:40
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

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Sorry, but when I read this I thought immediately at Southern Europe (i.e. Italy, Spain)
The rule is that the northern you go, the "asocial" people tend to be - exactly the contrary of what you said
You haven't spend much time up north I see....
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  #35  
Old 15.06.2020, 03:42
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Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

I am from Asia, and spent the last two years in the Netherlands as a Master student in a medical center, now continue my research in Switzerland as a PhD student.

I totally understand the free mind you mentioned because I also suffered a lot from judgemental environment before I went to the Netherlands. I truly felt my mind was freed. People don't judge you there, or at least they won't let you feel it. I felt that dutch people in general were especially skilled at empathy. (Maybe this is a cultural thing.) And almost all the people I met in the netherlands were supportive and caring. The carefree feeling has gone when I moved here. I still enjoy my life here but often feel high social expectations.

If you values the free mind, open-minded environment, I do think the Netherlands is a good option. But I stronly suggest you consider other cities than Amsterdam, like Rotterdam, Utrecht and Nijmegen. Rotterdam is more comfortable to live than Amsterdam. Many people work in Amsterdam and live in Rotterdam.

One of my dutch friends is a young emergency doctor in Rotterdam, I spent two weeks at her place and felt that she enjoyed her work quite a lot, though she worked a lot. (Well she is an asian-dutch, so...) She can afford a two-bedroom apartment near the hospital with mortgage, the repayment of which is nearly the same as the rent for an apartment like that. Some friends in other industries also buy apartments with mortgage loans after about three years of work after Master graduation. However, they are all under 30 and single, so maybe different from your situation.

Lauguage would be a barrier. For a health worker, I think Dutch language would be a requirement.

Entertainment: more indoor activities than outdoor. If you love movies, music, and arts, and beer, you'll be satisfied and even thrilled. If you love hiking, climbing, and other activities under the blessing of the sun, think twice.

Family and kid raising: Sorry I cannot help here.
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