Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Leaving Switzerland  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26.11.2019, 17:50
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Freeman John has no particular reputation at present
Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Dear Forum members,

I’m new to the forum but have been reading it for some time. I’m a Swiss guy considering leaving Switzerland and would like some opinions on my project.

I’m in my late thirties, in a medical profession, born and raised in the French speaking part, one of my parent is Swiss and the other is Foreign.

I’ve travelled and lived abroad a little bit. In the past few years, I noticed there are some aspects of Swiss mentality and society that are difficult for me now. These are the same that are often talked about by expats on the forum.

Anyway, I am now looking for societies which are more welcoming, free, open-minded, social, equalitarian and progressive. I’m also looking for a country with a better work-life balance, even if it is for a lower salary. My first choice is the Netherlands, followed by Norway and Denmark. I thought about Australia, New Zealand and Canada, but they are remote and living in Europe is important for me.

My first choice is Amsterdam as it is the most open, multicultural and welcoming place I’ve been to. I like the Dutch mentality and language as well. I started to learn Dutch and I wrote to a few hospitals and medical societies to have more information.

So I would like some advice and recommendation about my project. I understand that the grass is not greener on the other side. However, I think it’s important to share the values of the society you live in as much as possible. I would like to live in a society which is less capitalistic than Switzerland.

Are there some people from Norway, The Netherlands or Denmark who have some advice for me?

Thank you very much!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 26.11.2019, 17:55
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,045
Groaned at 341 Times in 283 Posts
Thanked 11,759 Times in 5,727 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Stay here

Said a Dutch person
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 26.11.2019, 18:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7,625
Groaned at 279 Times in 208 Posts
Thanked 16,880 Times in 5,935 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
Stay here

Said a Dutch person
Another Dutch person agrees.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 26.11.2019, 18:18
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,749
Groaned at 466 Times in 372 Posts
Thanked 20,642 Times in 8,557 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
Stay here

Said a Dutch person
Quote:
View Post
Another Dutch person agrees.
Perhaps expanding on what you wrote may help the OP?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 26.11.2019, 18:37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post

My first choice is Amsterdam as it is the most open, multicultural and welcoming place I’ve been to. I like the Dutch mentality and language as well.
Living somewhere is not to be compared by being somewhere for some days on a holiday.

Housing market is exhausted, so unless you have good money to spend don't expect on anything near decent in or close to Amsterdam within reasonable time.

I admit it is great to be there for a weekend, but Dutch cities like Groningen are imho much more friendly and good/effordable to live in. (And nightlife is excellent)

However healthcare in the Netherlands unless you are in the top of the chain sucks to work in. Low payments, shitty hours, stress, bureaucracy and currently plagued with strikes for better conditions, and many Dutch health people move to Switzerland due to better conditions and payment. So beware..

From your 3 options I as a Dutch would put The Netherlands and especially Amsterdam at the bottom of the list.

Signed by another Dutch.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 26.11.2019, 18:48
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 28,547
Groaned at 1,930 Times in 1,463 Posts
Thanked 33,716 Times in 16,087 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Having spent a lot of time in Norway (2+ weeks/year from 2000 - 2010, only a couple of which were vacation) I would say that it's far better here.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26.11.2019, 18:57
Island Monkey's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wallis
Posts: 4,161
Groaned at 71 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 3,979 Times in 1,896 Posts
Island Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

It might not be "better" in NL, but it's good to experience life in another country.... maybe he just need a change, he can always come back.

I would think getting your language up to standard in any of those countries for a medical job, might be tricky (unless your other parent is Scandinavian and you already speak it?). As you speak English, maybe Ireland or even Malta could be an option? (not saying they are perfect places), I'm not suggesting the UK because who wants to live in Brexit Britain
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Island Monkey for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 26.11.2019, 19:07
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 6,751
Groaned at 60 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 9,642 Times in 3,968 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Since you speak French... what about the French-speaking European countries? I doubt you can really work in a medical job without a local language, and starting off somewhere where you already have a command may be good. If you like the experience of being outside of Switzerland (or if you don't) it will inform your next move.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26.11.2019, 19:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,102
Groaned at 309 Times in 252 Posts
Thanked 12,880 Times in 6,739 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
It might not be "better" in NL, but it's good to experience life in another country.... maybe he just need a change, he can always come back.

I would think getting your language up to standard in any of those countries for a medical job, might be tricky (unless your other parent is Scandinavian and you already speak it?). As you speak English, maybe Ireland or even Malta could be an option? (not saying they are perfect places), I'm not suggesting the UK because who wants to live in Brexit Britain
This. Totally. Who knows OP, besides learning a lot of new things, you might even like it wherever you decide to move.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26.11.2019, 20:03
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,749
Groaned at 466 Times in 372 Posts
Thanked 20,642 Times in 8,557 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
From your 3 options I as a Dutch would put The Netherlands and especially Amsterdam at the bottom of the list.

Signed by another Dutch.
I know a half-Dutch family who moved to the Netherlands after many years here. They couldn't get on here and had a terrible time with neighbours after buying a house here and had really serious problems with the schools.

They're much happier in the Netherlands.

I suggest, like others, the OP makes his move. Living in another country is a great experience, even if only to appreciate what you had back home more.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 26.11.2019, 20:17
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
I know a half-Dutch family who moved to the Netherlands after many years here. They couldn't get on here and had a terrible time with neighbours after buying a house here and had really serious problems with the schools.

They're much happier in the Netherlands.

I suggest, like others, the OP makes his move. Living in another country is a great experience, even if only to appreciate what you had back home more.
I'm not telling him that he should stay, and I know that some Dutch are not able to build a life here due to them not coping with the Swiss style of doing things.

But truth is also that healthcare in the Netherlands from the employee point of view often simply is a disaster.

He should not go there due to Amsterdam being a nice town for a holiday, he should get to know the circumstances where he is about to dive in so he can make a proper decision. I don't know his function, but where he to work in healthcare with shifts for 2.500,- a month, and than to pay taxes, healthcare & housing around Amsterdam, life really ain't that great.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 27.11.2019, 11:13
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Freeman John has no particular reputation at present
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Thank you all for your answers! It's helpful.

- roegner & k_and_e: could you please elaborate? Thanks!

- st2lemans: what do you think is better in Switzerland? I noticed that in Norway, it's easier to own a house than in Switzerland. I also noticed that they have more free time. The infrastructures for children are also better than in Switzerland (daycare, etc).

- EdwinNL: good point. This is why I'm asking on this forum. I will talk next week with a dutch resident in Utrecht over the phone and ask her questions. I'm interested in the more horizontal hierarchy and the fact that people can say what they think. I thought that people in The Netherlands had less working hours.

According to this data: OECD Better Life Index.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm aware there is a difference between a country on paper (or on holiday) and real life. I'm a resident, so I'm both a worker and a trainee: I'm aware that I'm making more money in Switzerland than in NL at this stage. You are right about the income/cost of life ratio at this point. When I'll have my specialisation degree, it will be more favorable I think.

- doropfiz, Island Monkey, greenmount, Tom1234: I like "live and let live" countries. Freedom is an important value for me. I like the freedom of thought, honesty/straightforwardness and "gezelligheid" (that is also found in other nordic countries). I like that in The Netherlands what is respectful is to tell the truth and not to hide what you think. This in comparison with saving face or not vexing the other person.

The cultures in the upper right corner have my interest map.

In the mean time, I decided to meet more "expats"/travellers where I live, with Meetup. If you guys have any suggestions how I can meet more people like that, I'm all ears!

Once again, thank you very much for your answers!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Freeman John for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 27.11.2019, 13:03
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Horn/TG
Posts: 1,667
Groaned at 43 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 785 Times in 552 Posts
blackbird has no particular reputation at present
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

The danish society is not wellcoming or freeminded, in parts of sweden (Malmö, stockholm and göteborg)
it feels like a warzone , in parts of malmö even the police make a run.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/sch...aum-ld.1362803

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-d...-idUSKCN1T111M

https://time.com/5504331/denmark-mig...ndholm-island/
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank blackbird for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 27.11.2019, 13:58
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7,625
Groaned at 279 Times in 208 Posts
Thanked 16,880 Times in 5,935 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
- roegner & k_and_e: could you please elaborate? Thanks!
Unfortunately, The Netherlands has become overcrowded (traffic is horrible, very hard to find a place to live), overregulated and poorly governed (for example, because of bad legislation, NL is probably the only country in the world with an acute nitrogen problem, causing huge economic impact).

Still, people are nice and I love the country but don't want to live there anymore.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 27.11.2019, 14:24
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Zug
Posts: 111
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 95 Times in 49 Posts
jamon8 has earned some respectjamon8 has earned some respect
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Move to Russia, stay there as long as you could, return to Switzerland and enjoy it. Could be repeated with some other countries once you get bored again.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank jamon8 for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 27.11.2019, 14:47
xandeo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Top right corner
Posts: 333
Groaned at 28 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 460 Times in 170 Posts
xandeo has an excellent reputationxandeo has an excellent reputationxandeo has an excellent reputationxandeo has an excellent reputation
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
The danish society is not wellcoming or freeminded, in parts of sweden (Malmö, stockholm and göteborg)
it feels like a warzone , in parts of malmö even the police make a run.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/sch...aum-ld.1362803

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-d...-idUSKCN1T111M

https://time.com/5504331/denmark-mig...ndholm-island/
Agree on this. I lived in Sthlm for a few years, lovely city as a tourist but a hell as an expat - not freeminded at all, jealousy is widespread as taxes eat away most of the income and people scr*w you over with a smile on their face. Never again.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank xandeo for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 27.11.2019, 15:03
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lugano
Posts: 833
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 924 Times in 437 Posts
LuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond reputeLuganoPirate has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

I lived in Holland for 12 years, Dutch ex-wife and two lovely kids. I am Swiss and can honestly say I would not be where I am today if it had not been for the commercially minded Dutch banks and companies. However, once I was successful, employing 20 people, a large turnover and good profits, the tax man and other officials got involved.

Even though everything we did was above board we had continuous inspections, labour disputes always went against us, even when the employee stole from us. Seems theft was not a reason to dismiss him!! All in all, like many Dutch expats here, I decided the hassle was not worth it, sold the business and moved to Switzerland. A decision I've not regretted.

So, as others say, while Switzerland is by no means perfect, it's a lot better than Holland and I'd stay here.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank LuganoPirate for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 27.11.2019, 15:04
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 28,547
Groaned at 1,930 Times in 1,463 Posts
Thanked 33,716 Times in 16,087 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
- st2lemans: what do you think is better in Switzerland? I noticed that in Norway, it's easier to own a house than in Switzerland. I also noticed that they have more free time.
More free time? You are joking.

Prices are higher, 25% VAT (100% of vehicles), and like in all nordic countries a family cannot survive on a single salary, unlike here.

Wine is extremely expensive.

And the weather sucks, especially in winter.

It's a nice place to visit when on the company dime, however.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 27.11.2019, 15:31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

Quote:
View Post
even when the employee stole from us. Seems theft was not a reason to dismiss him!!
You have to follow the procedure perfectly according to law without a single error, and even than it has to be held against what did the company do to prevent it, are the consequences for the employee not too harsh when compared with what he did, is the burden of proof beyond any doubt etc.. etc.. Employee protection in the Netherlands is ridiculous.

Dutch people: Why do employers not give us contracts without an enddate.

Also Dutch people: We refuse to give in on any of our rights.

Both my parents had their own company but they always refused to have employees. "If somebody breaks their back during a skiing holiday government demands me to pay them for another two years... Screw that."
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 27.11.2019, 16:05
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,102
Groaned at 309 Times in 252 Posts
Thanked 12,880 Times in 6,739 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Leaving Switzerland for Netherlands, Norway or Denmark

But who knows, maybe OP will find his own bubble, circle of friends etc and will like it there? You don't have to be painfully aware of everything that goes wrong across a country.....all the time, every single second of the day.

C'mon guys, there must be positive things too.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Leaving Switzerland for the Netherlands - Share Moving? Natalia0303 Leaving Switzerland 5 23.09.2017 16:34
Should I study in the Netherlands or in Switzerland. chomp Education 2 07.04.2017 02:05
To live in the Netherlands vs Switzerland Pernilleskokken Family matters/health 28 16.05.2014 11:06
Hello considering to relocate from the Netherlands to Switzerland AspDev Introductions 2 10.04.2013 16:05
Comparisons - Denmark/Switzerland? Chococat Daily life 10 30.08.2007 20:09


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0