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Old 25.10.2020, 16:11
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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I think I told you this already some time ago in another, related thread: Whatever it is you are running away from, make sure you leave it behind. Moving to Denmark might not solve your problems.
Yes, I remember you said that .
Maybe I should cut my ID card and burn the Swiss flag .

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I have totally met some lousy engineers, though. But I think you need to be somewhere where you trust. That hygge magic

Life is a series of risky experiments to figure who to trust and who not to trust...just to figure out that all is better when you trust yourself, then you start trusting others. A couple of bad experiences won't phase you.
Not sure that place even exists heh, but for sure it's not where I am right now . As you said, I have to try it out. It can always get worse, but sometimes it could also get better .

Any solid advice for Denmark? I don't even know how to make connections there besides my mother & uncle probably, I just don't enjoy going out (well the current situation makes this impossible so ...). Furthermore everybody else I know is in their 30s and is "multiplying" (last cousin probably will also get kid[s] soon).

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All the stool talking too, probably better to save for stool specialists.
Yeah, sorry about that .
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  #42  
Old 25.10.2020, 16:19
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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Really? You aren't celiac since you were born ? But if you are celiac now, you cannot eat pasta/bread, right? I can (with minor synthoms) ...

Yeah I probably should do these tests. Somehow I'm a bit demotivated though (seen lots of plants doctors talking about these investigation tests leading to more harm than good, e.g. bleeding to death during exham, unnecessary treatment due to false positives, etc).
No not necessarily. You have a genetic predisposition or not to celiac, but like many other autoimmune diseases it is at some point mysteriously triggered by something. For me I think it was puberty but I didnít get diagnosed until 17. Others have no symptoms until pregnancy or a bad sickness or any of a number of other factors. My dad to this day doesnít have classic Celiac symptoms and can eat whatever he wants without feeling sick. He finally took his diagnosis seriously when he had to go to a liver specialist because his liver was starting to fail and the specialist said ďthe ONLY thing wrong with your body is that you have celiac disease and you arenít eating 100% gluten free. Do that now, then see how your liver and blood pressure are.Ē Six months later his liver is completely normal and blood pressure nearly completely normal as well.

I used to be able to eat gluten with only minor symptoms. Unfortunately all the while I was doing more damage than I could have realized at the time. Iíd have a friendís cheesecake because only the crust had gluten so it wasnít much, etc. Now at 25 if I have even a piece of gluten free bread that has been in a normal toaster, or if my husband double dips his bread knife into the butter, I am ill for days. Itís become really sensitive. But Iím thankful honestly for the gastrointestinal symptoms or I would be taking risks or even eating normally as my father did for so long, all the while causing irreversible damage.

So yeah, whether you have celiac disease or not, I really really really recommend getting the necessary scopes. The risks are not as high as doctors like to say. If you have celiac or another digestive disorder you are doing much more long term irreversible damage to yourself by not getting tested. I keep using Celiac as an example because I know it so well but there are many other such diseasesóand celiac disease isnít as simple as removing bread and pasta, nor are many of the other diseases. Heck I got brutally ill last month because I had one scoop of amaretto ice cream that was made in a gluten free environment but with a sprinkle of gluten free amaretto biscuit crumbs on top of the container of ice creamóand those biscuits, though themselves in theory gluten freeówere made in a facility that also makes gluten-containing biscuits. The amount of gluten I was exposed to was thus incredibly small. But my body totally went into the full autoimmune reaction. Point being, itís really worth knowing whatís wrong with your body. At least it gives you a fighting chance to take care of yourself.
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  #43  
Old 25.10.2020, 16:19
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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Yes, I remember you said that .
Maybe I should cut my ID card and burn the Swiss flag .


Not sure that place even exists heh, but for sure it's not where I am right now . As you said, I have to try it out. It can always get worse, but sometimes it could also get better .

Any solid advice for Denmark? I don't even know how to make connections there besides my mother & uncle probably, I just don't enjoy going out (well the current situation makes this impossible so ...). Furthermore everybody else I know is in their 30s and is "multiplying" (last cousin probably will also get kid[s] soon).


Yeah, sorry about that .
We don't mind, there's a lot of EF patience for interesting facts. It's only when you look around for new network, it is better to keep some "scientific details" for laters, I guess.

I think if you plan a big mission, even if it doesn't work out, you'll be proud.

Not that many Danes here, tbh. They must be content there.
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  #44  
Old 25.10.2020, 16:42
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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No not necessarily. You have a genetic predisposition or not to celiac, but like many other autoimmune diseases it is at some point mysteriously triggered by something. For me I think it was puberty but I didn’t get diagnosed until 17. Others have no symptoms until pregnancy or a bad sickness or any of a number of other factors. My dad to this day doesn’t have classic Celiac symptoms and can eat whatever he wants without feeling sick. He finally took his diagnosis seriously when he had to go to a liver specialist because his liver was starting to fail and the specialist said “the ONLY thing wrong with your body is that you have celiac disease and you aren’t eating 100% gluten free. Do that now, then see how your liver and blood pressure are.” Six months later his liver is completely normal and blood pressure nearly completely normal as well.

I used to be able to eat gluten with only minor symptoms. Unfortunately all the while I was doing more damage than I could have realized at the time. I’d have a friend’s cheesecake because only the crust had gluten so it wasn’t much, etc. Now at 25 if I have even a piece of gluten free bread that has been in a normal toaster, or if my husband double dips his bread knife into the butter, I am ill for days. It’s become really sensitive. But I’m thankful honestly for the gastrointestinal symptoms or I would be taking risks or even eating normally as my father did for so long, all the while causing irreversible damage.

So yeah, whether you have celiac disease or not, I really really really recommend getting the necessary scopes. The risks are not as high as doctors like to say. If you have celiac or another digestive disorder you are doing much more long term irreversible damage to yourself by not getting tested. I keep using Celiac as an example because I know it so well but there are many other such diseases—and celiac disease isn’t as simple as removing bread and pasta, nor are many of the other diseases. Heck I got brutally ill last month because I had one scoop of amaretto ice cream that was made in a gluten free environment but with a sprinkle of gluten free amaretto biscuit crumbs on top of the container of ice cream—and those biscuits, though themselves in theory gluten free—were made in a facility that also makes gluten-containing biscuits. The amount of gluten I was exposed to was thus incredibly small. But my body totally went into the full autoimmune reaction. Point being, it’s really worth knowing what’s wrong with your body. At least it gives you a fighting chance to take care of yourself.
.
Sorry for your circumstances, you (and your father) must have gone through hell . You have really become VERY sensitive to gluten then . But yes, as you said, if the synthoms are very "clear" (severe) at least you can recognize what the "problem" is and fix it. What irriversible damage would you have done? Didn't you say that your father's liver was cured after he went 100% gluten free?

I'm not sure if this justifies a diagnosis however, let alone let somebody stick a probe up my ass . If you have colorectal cancer you could have a colonoscopy, but you could also do a stool test to identify blood in your stool, which can be a sign of cancer. My mother told me that in Denmark they do these stool analysis routinely every 5 years . If you are convinced you have celiac, you can already try to remove the offending foods and go 100% gluten free (also avoiding cross-contaminated foods such as oats for instance) and see if the synthoms improve. It's not like anyway the treatment would change, isn't it? You wouldn't be able to eat those foods anyway.

I've started suspecting of some kind of autoimmune disease on my side as well. Mainly because of my eyes synthoms (dry eyes, sand behind the eyes, ...). And then when I look at fatigue and my other synthoms I was looking more into chronic fatigue and ME/CFS (although it's not *that* severe, it's still very tiring to do anything after 8h job).

I'm eating gluten free now, but as you said some cross-contamination cannot be avoided, unless you can find (and willing to pay 3x the price) for the gluten-free stuff with less than 1 ppb (part per billion) of gluten particles inside .... Thankfully I don't think I'm in such situation right now, so I can take "normal" oats for instance, I don't think in my case the extra effort is justified (for now at least).

The fact that the bacteria in my gut have been wiped out is quite established now ...

I'm not against tests all-in-all, I'm against invasive procedures which could be potentially dangerous (although in the majority of cases they aren't). And if it's something that you can "try to change X and see if Y improves" I would rather do that first. Just my .02$.

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We don't mind, there's a lot of EF patience for interesting facts. It's only when you look around for new network, it is better to keep some "scientific details" for laters, I guess.

I think if you plan a big mission, even if it doesn't work out, you'll be proud.

Not that many Danes here, tbh. They must be content there.
What goes in has to come out, whichever way or form it takes .

It surely isn't a small trip to the nearby town, so yeah, it's a big mission for me . But failure is not an option, there will be no comeback here for me . Let the bridges you burn light your way, isn't it this what they say ?

That's also my feeling ... Switzerland has more money and less taxes, but apart from that Denmark is IMHO a better place to live.

EDIT: @MusicChick, it seems I will have to get more "aggressive" in selling or giving this stuff away for free .

Last edited by swissnative; 25.10.2020 at 17:40.
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  #45  
Old 25.10.2020, 18:36
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

Celiac disease, undiagnosed, will wreck your small intestine. I was diagnosed early enough, and I am sensitive enough, that I am probably fine. But my dad has probably done irreversible damage to his small intestines meaning he has to take extra supplements and such to make sure heís getting proper nutrition. He hasnít had another scope and biopsy lately but theyíve been watching his blood work and doing bacterial scans and such to make sure he is recovering. His liver has healed but his intestines likely wonít ever. Undiagnosed celiac can also lead to other autoimmune conditions and is linked to several cancers and heart failure. Because it is autoimmune it really wrecks havoc on your body. I have to read every label and make sure everything is without traces of gluten. Every celiac doesóor should. Other autoimmune diseases are just as bad in different ways.

I feel lucky compared to many others. Iíve watched people struggle with autoimmune diseases that donít have such an ďeasyĒ answer as celiac. At least I can eliminate my biggest trigger. Many people have to fight a long time to find their triggers. Celiac, if I am not mistaken, is the only autoimmune condition with a known trigger. For all the others it varies from person to person.
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  #46  
Old 25.10.2020, 18:41
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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All the stool talking too, probably better to save for stool specialists.
OP wants to move to a shitty country, so I think it is perfectly appropriate.
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  #47  
Old 25.10.2020, 18:55
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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OP wants to move to a shitty country, so I think it is perfectly appropriate.
Thatís really not fair. Maybe you donít agree with his assessment of Switzerland but heís had it here and wants to move near family. So? We almost moved to be near my family despite not agreeing necessarily with the politics etc. Weíre better off here but the family argument was strong. Itís hard to be alone, even in a country that matches your passport. Life can be difficult and sometimes we need to do things that donít necessarily make sense from the outside.
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  #48  
Old 25.10.2020, 19:01
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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OP wants to move to a shitty country, so I think it is perfectly appropriate.
I want to leave the shitties country ever: Switzerland.
Every person is threated the worst in its own country.
If there wasn't this military constriction / Zivilschutz in Switzerland and neither the tax (we could talk also about sexual discrimination, which the government refuses to acknoledge) maybe my opinion of Swizerland would be a bit better.

In Denmark after my 30th Birthday (soon !), I also won't be subjected to (possible) military constriction.

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Celiac disease, undiagnosed, will wreck your small intestine. I was diagnosed early enough, and I am sensitive enough, that I am probably fine. But my dad has probably done irreversible damage to his small intestines meaning he has to take extra supplements and such to make sure he’s getting proper nutrition. He hasn’t had another scope and biopsy lately but they’ve been watching his blood work and doing bacterial scans and such to make sure he is recovering. His liver has healed but his intestines likely won’t ever. Undiagnosed celiac can also lead to other autoimmune conditions and is linked to several cancers and heart failure. Because it is autoimmune it really wrecks havoc on your body. I have to read every label and make sure everything is without traces of gluten. Every celiac does—or should. Other autoimmune diseases are just as bad in different ways.
I didn't know it caused irriversible damage. Sorry for your dad . I read that some intestinal damages are irreversible (e.g. hemorrhoids which can heal but always are there) but I thought that autoimmune disease were like as soon as you stop putting fuel on top of the fire, the fire would extinguish. Only exception I could think of would be Milk products allegedly causing Type I diabetes when given to kids - or some adults for that matter (once your pancreas beta cells are gone, you are on insulin for life).

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I feel lucky compared to many others. I’ve watched people struggle with autoimmune diseases that don’t have such an “easy” answer as celiac. At least I can eliminate my biggest trigger. Many people have to fight a long time to find their triggers. Celiac, if I am not mistaken, is the only autoimmune condition with a known trigger. For all the others it varies from person to person.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I still didn't find mine. In over 10 years of diagnostic for my eyes problem, 5 Optalmologists and over 6 types of different eyedrops they still didn't find out to what I was allergic (since it's an allergy according to them). It could very well be autoimmune. It's driving me crazy. Now that I don't pay too much attention to it it's not so bad anymore, but it can really show up on long road trips for instance.

In such cases of autoimmune diseases what usually helps to find out the food sensitivity it's an elimination diet, although that can screw up your health in different ways (damage to kidnes, heart, ...) or create new problems due to alteration of your microbiome. There are days when I wish I would just fast for a week or two (so tiring it is after each meal), but then I remember myself that if I were to do that I'd likely screw up the little microbiome I have left and the punishment when food is reintroduced would be severe .

Have to take kinda baby steps when changing things (difficult for me who is a all or nothing kind of guy ) because it can really get much worse if I'm not careful.

Last edited by swissnative; 25.10.2020 at 19:02. Reason: Added info about Denmark military service
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  #49  
Old 25.10.2020, 19:03
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

I was trying to make a cheap joke. Apologies if that was offensive. I wish you good luck with the move.
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Old 25.10.2020, 19:18
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Re: Moving to Denmark: anybody moving the other way :) ?

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I was trying to make a cheap joke. Apologies if that was offensive. I wish you good luck with the move.
Thank you for clarifying, Iím sorry I didnít pick up on the humor.

To the OP, hugs to you and hope you can figure things out for yourself. Itís really terrible living with fatigue and all the other physical problems. Best of luck.
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Old 25.10.2020, 19:25
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Thank you for clarifying, Iím sorry I didnít pick up on the humor.

To the OP, hugs to you and hope you can figure things out for yourself. Itís really terrible living with fatigue and all the other physical problems. Best of luck.
Thank you .

Somehow the problem is that it's never "bad enough" that somebody really looks into it, but it's not "good enough" so that I can do whatever I want. They just think I'm a bit depressed or a bit tired, but since I am not bedridden 24/7, I must be OK, right?

That's why I'm skeptical about spending even more money on Swiss doctors that either don't care or don't believe me . And I don't mean only Swiss Nationals doctors, even the foreigners (from Spain, Brazil, ...) that work in Switzerland are not better. I am not discriminating . I should have said Doctors in the Swiss Health System .

Anyway in 5-6 months it won't matter anymore.

Best luck to you and your father as well .

Now that I'm trying to sell all the furniture (after talking to a friend that could drive a van with a heavy trailer and willing to help me) it really feels like I'm selling the soul to the devil. Strange feeling. Feel as if parts of me are being torn off .

But somehow I lack the energy to do my 8h job, find a new job, find a new apartment, try to sell/get rid of these things, schedule the move, ... It feels as if I'm going to have a heart attack soon. Thankfully my mom is trying to help to find a new home up there, but it's still too much to me to handle .

Last edited by roegner; 27.10.2020 at 09:41. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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