Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Leaving Switzerland  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12.08.2021, 20:47
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: 4053 Basel
Posts: 2
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Lola has no particular reputation at present
Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Has anyone had experience with withdrawing pension because moving back to USA? I know USA has different agreements (versus EU/ EFTA) so that I can withdraw (versus transfer).

I am getting together what seems to be the needs:
- deregistration receipt/ letter from canton
- notarized form saying my husband approves of my doing this (what!?)
- banking info for the pension funds
- new address in USA
- my employer notifies pension company of my departure

Has anyone had this experience? I'm curious of how long it takes to get funds (how much bureaucracy). I will be requesting that taxes are taken out.

Big thanks to the forum for anyone who can offer insights.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12.08.2021, 20:51
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,707
Groaned at 2,625 Times in 1,868 Posts
Thanked 39,824 Times in 18,783 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Yes, spouse must approve when cashing out a pension, as they have a vested interest.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 22.08.2021, 08:25
robBob's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,297
Groaned at 67 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 3,296 Times in 1,751 Posts
robBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Swiss pension should already be US taxed. So only Swiss tax should come into play.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank robBob for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 22.08.2021, 08:29
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Swiss pension should already be US taxed. So only Swiss tax should come into play.
Swiss withholding tax can be refunded.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 22.08.2021, 17:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,724
Groaned at 424 Times in 234 Posts
Thanked 6,579 Times in 3,024 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Yes, spouse must approve when cashing out a pension, as they have a vested interest.

Tom
Yup. If you are divorced, then you‘ll be asked to provide details of your „Zivilstatus“ (marital Status) before withdrawing assets.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22.08.2021, 17:47
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Yup. If you are divorced, then you‘ll be asked to provide details of your „Zivilstatus“ (marital Status) before withdrawing assets.
They accepted what was written on my leaving certificate, but not all pension providers are so easy, hence I did not bother to move the fund to a cheaper tax canton.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 22.08.2021, 18:05
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,724
Groaned at 424 Times in 234 Posts
Thanked 6,579 Times in 3,024 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
They accepted what was written on my leaving certificate, but not all pension providers are so easy, hence I did not bother to move the fund to a cheaper tax canton.
I had to provide details of my marital status from my Kanton of origin. Easy - all on-line
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22.08.2021, 18:33
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
I had to provide details of my marital status from my Kanton of origin. Easy - all on-line
So you are Swiss, so easy peasy. No such thing for Brits
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 22.08.2021, 19:00
terrifisch
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Hi OP,

At some point, we will be headed back to the US as well. My OH's colleague left for the US several years ago and had no issues regarding the distribution of his pension assets once he submitted documentation.

As robBob mentioned, you should have been declaring your Employer's contribution each year as income. Regarding the Swiss taxation on leaving, much depends on where the pension is domiciled. In the case of my OH and his colleague, the pension assets are held in Zurich.

It may be worth considering moving the pension to either canton Schwyz or Zug as the tax rates are lower than Zurich. Below is a link to a company which specialises in pension relocation for tax purposes:

https://www.liberty.ch/en/vested-ben...reign-country/

Hope this helps and best of luck!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22.08.2021, 19:03
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Hi OP,

At some point, we will be headed back to the US as well. My OH's colleague left for the US several years ago and had no issues regarding the distribution of his pension assets once he submitted documentation.

As robBob mentioned, you should have been declaring your Employer's contribution each year as income. Regarding the Swiss taxation on leaving, much depends on where the pension is domiciled. In the case of my OH and his colleague, the pension assets are held in Zurich.

It may be worth considering moving the pension to either canton Schwyz or Zug as the tax rates are lower than Zurich. Below is a link to a company which specialises in pension relocation for tax purposes:

https://www.liberty.ch/en/vested-ben...reign-country/

Hope this helps and best of luck!
However if a US citizen returning to the US you would elect the withdrawal to be taxable in the US (already paid) & claim back the Swiss tax paid, so pointless paying out to transfer to a lower lever of withholding tax in another canton.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 22.08.2021, 19:09
terrifisch
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
However if a US citizen returning to the US you would elect the withdrawal to be taxable in the US (already paid) & claim back the Swiss tax paid, so pointless paying out to transfer to a lower lever of withholding tax in another canton.
It depends on one's income (and effective tax rate in the US) whether moving to a canton with a lower tax base is worth it. Probably best to run the numbers
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 22.08.2021, 19:12
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
It depends on one's income (and effective tax rate in the US) whether moving to a canton with a lower tax base is worth it. Probably best to run the numbers
Surely US tax has already been paid in full on all contributions, so Swiss tax is additional tax for a US tax payer.

If 100% covered as foreign exempted earnings in the US, not sure then.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 22.08.2021, 19:45
terrifisch
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Yes, Employer's Contribution to Pillar 2 should have been declared as income annually on US tax returns throughout the years living in Switzerland. That said, you'd be surprised how many Americans who do not know this

Upon leaving Switzerland, the taxes paid to the Swiss tax authorities on Pillar 2 assets can be claimed on the US tax return but this is not always a direct offset. My understanding is that it depends on whether one claims the Foreign Earned Income Inclusion (FEIE) or a Foreign Tax Credit - and again, the person's income and their effective tax rate come into play.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 22.08.2021, 20:24
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Yes, Employer's Contribution to Pillar 2 should have been declared as income annually on US tax returns throughout the years living in Switzerland. That said, you'd be surprised how many Americans who do not know this

Upon leaving Switzerland, the taxes paid to the Swiss tax authorities on Pillar 2 assets can be claimed on the US tax return but this is not always a direct offset. My understanding is that it depends on whether one claims the Foreign Earned Income Inclusion (FEIE) or a Foreign Tax Credit - and again, the person's income and their effective tax rate come into play.
My understanding as it is withholding tax, that by electing to the Swiss tax authority that you wish the money to be taxed elsewhere, the entire withholding tax is refunded. This was explained to me in Geneva when I was discussing options about 10 years ago.

Rather than claiming a tax credit you would just declare the untaxed gains. As quite a proportion of Swiss pension contributions is spent on insurance, some of the gains are offset by insurance charges.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 22.08.2021, 20:53
terrifisch
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
My understanding as it is withholding tax, that by electing to the Swiss tax authority that you wish the money to be taxed elsewhere, the entire withholding tax is refunded. This was explained to me in Geneva when I was discussing options about 10 years ago.

Rather than claiming a tax credit you would just declare the untaxed gains. As quite a proportion of Swiss pension contributions is spent on insurance, some of the gains are offset by insurance charges.
Wow FMF! I have never heard that scenario but will look into it. Do you think it may be different for those from the UK versus those from the US (who are taxed regardless of residence on worldwide income?)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 23.08.2021, 07:48
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Wow FMF! I have never heard that scenario but will look into it. Do you think it may be different for those from the UK versus those from the US (who are taxed regardless of residence on worldwide income?)
I believe anyone can elect to recover 'withholding' tax, it's to prevent money being taxed twice as would happen to an American.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 23.08.2021, 08:56
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,707
Groaned at 2,625 Times in 1,868 Posts
Thanked 39,824 Times in 18,783 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Surely US tax has already been paid in full on all contributions, so Swiss tax is additional tax for a US tax payer.

If 100% covered as foreign exempted earnings in the US, not sure then.
Generally, unless you are a VERY high earner, no tax has been paid to the US.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 23.08.2021, 09:04
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension withdrawal- moving back to USA

Quote:
View Post
Generally, unless you are a VERY high earner, no tax has been paid to the US.

Tom
However it came under the exemption in the US in the year it was paid, so 'presumably' is not taxable now as it was previously declared. If that scenario is correct it could mean a Swiss pension is tax free to many Americans.

Generally 'taxable' is not a requirement that tax is actually paid, it can fall within tax free allowances of another jurisdiction.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
basel, leaving, pension, usa




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pension withdrawal - UK SteveBSL Leaving Switzerland 46 01.08.2021 11:35
Recover pension from CH when moving back to UK? DanGeo Finance/banking/taxation 3 04.06.2020 16:46
Moving back to the UK and withdrawing pension simonb196 Leaving Switzerland 15 05.08.2019 00:44
Cashing out swiss pension and moving back to U.S. lisainzurich Finance/banking/taxation 2 12.07.2016 12:02
Withdrawal of Pension (Non-EU) Dino71 Finance/banking/taxation 2 24.12.2011 20:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0